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Thread: BU and Argento GOES Blu-Ray (MERGED)

  1. #1111
    The Diabolical Dr. L Brian L's Avatar
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    Re: BU and Argento GOES Blu-Ray (MERGED)

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex R. View Post
    Michael Mackenzie has a 123" Da-lite Cinema Vision Perm-Wall screen calibrated by an ISF-certified technician using a Klein K-10. So I would guess he's got his shit together and isn't talking completely out of his ass. Blu-ray is supposed to offer the best technical presentation possible, so to me it only seems like fair game that some reviewers make 'em pass the ultimate test of being projected on wider displays. Most of us pedestrians won't watch it on the same kind of equipment so the flaws he talks about are bound to be less apparent.

    I'm pretty damn sure he's not inventing them for the sake of it. The guy has praised Blue Underground products quite often before and has no agenda. Troy's review, for instance, has been made using a 42" screen. Had he seen it on a 123" display, maybe he would've noted a few problems that weren't as obvious on a smaller screen?
    His setup puts my lousy one (well, I don't consider it lousy, I think it looks pretty good, but again it's rear projection TV and not front projection) to shame, that's for sure. I just read his review. I wonder what restorationist he spoke with and whom agreed with his impressions? I generally trust Mackenzie's reviews. I also trust Robert Harris's reviews over on Home Theater Forum, though I usually just get the links to them from AVS as I don't frequent that forum.


    For a direct link to his review:

    http://www.landofwhimsy.com/archives...-o-nine-tails/
    Last edited by Brian L; 05-29-2011 at 10:12 PM.

  2. #1112
    Young Buck J Hurtado's Avatar
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    Re: BU and Argento GOES Blu-Ray (MERGED)

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex R. View Post
    If Amazon is correct, the Arrow release of Tenebrae has been postponed again until June 27...
    It's been delayed until the fall, actually.

    (oops, I thought we were still talking about Cat O Nine Tails... carry on)
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  3. #1113
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    Re: BU and Argento GOES Blu-Ray (MERGED)

    When people make claims that they spoke with a professional who concurs with them, it's really up to them to name that other person. Otherwise, it doesn't hold up to scrutiny. It can't be factchecked and is thus utterly dismissable, whether it's true or not.

  4. #1114
    Careful... it bites. Alex M's Avatar
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    Re: BU and Argento GOES Blu-Ray (MERGED)

    ^^
    "I actually discussed this disc, among others, the other day with a highly respected film restoration and preservation expert, and we were very much on the same page as regards what is wrong with transfers like this and a number of other Italian cult titles. In a nutshell: no actual detail, just a whole load of harsh noise."
    And titties! You likes big titties, don't ya?
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  5. #1115
    Registered User Mattias Karlsson's Avatar
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    Re: BU and Argento GOES Blu-Ray (MERGED)

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex R. View Post
    Michael Mackenzie has a 123" Da-lite Cinema Vision Perm-Wall screen calibrated by an ISF-certified technician using a Klein K-10. So I would guess he's got his shit together and isn't talking completely out of his ass.

    Just because he has a big screen and a homepage don't make his comments automatic right. Just look at the COTLD mess.

  6. #1116
    Registered User Alex R.'s Avatar
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    Re: BU and Argento GOES Blu-Ray (MERGED)

    That wasn't really my point... In fact, I think the truth lies somewhere between Michael and Troy's reviews. This BD does not look like utter crap but it's definitely not the best Argento HD release out there. Not even in the top 3 in my opinion.

  7. #1117
    Registered User Marc C's Avatar
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    Re: BU and Argento GOES Blu-Ray (MERGED)

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex R. View Post
    Michael Mackenzie has a 123" Da-lite Cinema Vision Perm-Wall screen calibrated by an ISF-certified technician using a Klein K-10. So I would guess he's got his shit together and isn't talking completely out of his ass. Blu-ray is supposed to offer the best technical presentation possible, so to me it only seems like fair game that some reviewers make 'em pass the ultimate test of being projected on wider displays. Most of us pedestrians won't watch it on the same kind of equipment so the flaws he talks about are bound to be less apparent.

    I'm pretty damn sure he's not inventing them for the sake of it. The guy has praised Blue Underground products quite often before and has no agenda. Troy's review, for instance, has been made using a 42" screen. Had he seen it on a 123" display, maybe he would've noted a few problems that weren't as obvious on a smaller screen?
    I never said this guy has an agenda. the only think which bothers me is to call this release "shamefull". whatever, good to know which equipment he uses. my screen is even smaller than troy's: 40''

  8. #1118
    Raving and Drooling Wayne Schmidt's Avatar
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    Re: BU and Argento GOES Blu-Ray (MERGED)

    Quote Originally Posted by Marc C View Post
    I never said this guy has an agenda. the only think which bothers me is to call this release "shamefull". whatever, good to know which equipment he uses. my screen is even smaller than troy's: 40''
    Hyperbole? On net reviews? Never.

    You can take almost any transfer, go into a QC bay and scrutinize the shit out of it frame by frame and find things wrong. In fact, that's what QC people are supposed to do. Whether anyone, watching under a normal home set up would see those flaws is a judgement call the folks putting these things out have to make. I'm not saying Mackenzie's review is incorrect any more than Troy's. They're both reflections of their viewing enviroments and levels of expectation. I suspect Mackenzie's is more accurate, but Troy's reflects a "real world" view. For myself, I usually take a consensus of five or six reviews, see if there's a pattern of complaint and if there is if it's the type of "defect" I can live with.

    Also, and I mean no disrespect to anyone here and am not talking about specific sites, but complaints such as DNR, edge enhancement and so on get misindentified a lot in situations where they're not the problem (or certainly don't appear that way to me). So I don't get scared off by that unless, again, it pops up repeatedly in a cross section of reviews.

  9. #1119
    Moderator? Troy Howarth's Avatar
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    Re: BU and Argento GOES Blu-Ray (MERGED)

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex R. View Post
    I don't mean no disrespect here but I think our expectations differ a lot. To me, the Arrow Beyond had a very lackluster transfer.

    As for those who say Michael Mackenzie can't be trusted, I couldn't disagree more. I think his reviews are, most often than not, spot on. Surely more than other sites I won't name.
    I was talking about the BU City of the Living Dead disc, in fact. However, I was also pleased with Arrow's edition of The Beyond. To each their own.
    "One cannot 100% trust a screenshot that someone else made."

  10. #1120
    Moderator? Troy Howarth's Avatar
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    Re: BU and Argento GOES Blu-Ray (MERGED)

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex R. View Post
    That wasn't really my point... In fact, I think the truth lies somewhere between Michael and Troy's reviews. This BD does not look like utter crap but it's definitely not the best Argento HD release out there. Not even in the top 3 in my opinion.
    I didn't say it was 'the best.' I said it was one of the best - and I stand by that. With all due respect to Michael, his opinion is no more valid than anybody else's, really. There are those who agree with everything he says, and those who do not. As I said above, to each their own - if he's on the same page as you, or near enough to it, it's perfectly natural to respect and agree with his opinion more often than not.
    "One cannot 100% trust a screenshot that someone else made."

  11. #1121
    Registered User Mattias Karlsson's Avatar
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    Re: BU and Argento GOES Blu-Ray (MERGED)

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex R. View Post
    That wasn't really my point... In fact, I think the truth lies somewhere between Michael and Troy's reviews. This BD does not look like utter crap but it's definitely not the best Argento HD release out there. Not even in the top 3 in my opinion.

    The REAL truth is this:
    In the past year there have been ZERO evidence of this "DVNR fake grain" that some people say these titles have.
    Like I put it on Michael page:
    "If one looks at ANY of the big hollywood movies that we know have massive DVNR, they all (that I have seen at least) have a LOT less sharpness and detailed image than ANY of BU "massive DVNR and fake grain" titles".

    So if I get this straight. A small company releasing old low budget movies pays a lot of extra for DVNR and THEN adding fake grain, and magically get a much sharper and detail image than what big studies get on big budget films? "

    So, how about use the eyes and compare:
    *BIG budget film, big studio and just 10 years old, with massive DVNR
    http://www.landofwhimsy.com/hdcaptures/gladiator17.jpg

    *Small budget film, much smaller studio (BU), 40 years old, "with massive DVNR and fake grain?"
    http://www.landofwhimsy.com/hdcaptur...inetails18.jpg

    So, magically Blue underground have a technology that even the biggest studios don't have (or maybe they cannot afford on such small title as Gladiator), because a much older, smaller European film that, rumoured, have massive DVNR and added new grain, STILL can look shaper and more detailed than such "small" film as Gladiator.

    As I see it, unless proof is putting forward, this is just another "loose change cult following".

  12. #1122
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    Re: BU and Argento GOES Blu-Ray (MERGED)

    I guess Beaver picked the finest looking screengrabs then, because in those still shots it looks extremely good.

  13. #1123
    Registered User Alex R.'s Avatar
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    Re: BU and Argento GOES Blu-Ray (MERGED)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mattias Karlsson View Post
    The REAL truth is this:
    In the past year there have been ZERO evidence of this "DVNR fake grain" that some people say these titles have.
    Like I put it on Michael page:
    "If one looks at ANY of the big hollywood movies that we know have massive DVNR, they all (that I have seen at least) have a LOT less sharpness and detailed image than ANY of BU "massive DVNR and fake grain" titles".

    So if I get this straight. A small company releasing old low budget movies pays a lot of extra for DVNR and THEN adding fake grain, and magically get a much sharper and detail image than what big studies get on big budget films? "

    So, how about use the eyes and compare:
    *BIG budget film, big studio and just 10 years old, with massive DVNR
    http://www.landofwhimsy.com/hdcaptures/gladiator17.jpg

    *Small budget film, much smaller studio (BU), 40 years old, "with massive DVNR and fake grain?"
    http://www.landofwhimsy.com/hdcaptur...inetails18.jpg

    So, magically Blue underground have a technology that even the biggest studios don't have (or maybe they cannot afford on such small title as Gladiator), because a much older, smaller European film that, rumoured, have massive DVNR and added new grain, STILL can look shaper and more detailed than such "small" film as Gladiator.

    As I see it, unless proof is putting forward, this is just another "loose change cult following".
    This has absolutely nothing to do with The Cat O' Nine Tails and I don't know anything about this debate.

  14. #1124
    The Diabolical Dr. L Brian L's Avatar
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    Re: BU and Argento GOES Blu-Ray (MERGED)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kamyar View Post
    I guess Beaver picked the finest looking screengrabs then, because in those still shots it looks extremely good.
    The Beaver caps might be softer than they really are, as Mackenzie's grabs appear to match those seen on Blu-ray.com. There is one that is nearly identical between all three. On DVD Beaver, it is the one used for a subtitles example.


    I'll admit I'd prefer this softness in this case, it would make it look less harsh.


    Amazon currently has my copy as "Shipping Soon". I wonder if pre-orders exceeded the first shipment, as the release date is tomorrow and it's probably just going out tomorrow. I preordered on April 2nd.

  15. #1125
    Goo Goo Mucker Ben Gart's Avatar
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    Re: BU and Argento GOES Blu-Ray (MERGED)

    I don't buy into the fake grain thing. It seems to be an extra cost that'd cost more money than it's worth for an indie label. That's not to say it doesn't exist, but it seems far fetched and more trouble than it's worth (for any company let alone one like BU). I could believe it's a scanner/equipment that has been used that captures/processes the grain in the manner that has been reported by some reviewers. Maybe I'm less picky than others too (which may save me a lot of trouble in the long run).
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