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Andrew Ellis
10-28-2010, 12:03 PM
We've had this debate before and I've been one of the people who has maintained that is sometimes worth it to go to gray-market bootleggers for a rare OOP movie rather than try to download it. However, I continue to be amazed at how many bootleggers seem to want to defy the basic laws of economics.

I was looking for a movie that none of the regular bootleggers I deal with (who usually charge about $10 a flick) had. So I looked on ioffer where it was for sale for $30-$40! Now if you know anything about ioffer, that is NOT an original VHS tape or anything--at best it is a DVD-R copy of an original VHS and at worst a copy of a copy (of a copy of a copy. . .). Anyway, I ended up downloading the damn thing for free.

It cost about $2 at most to make a DVD-R, and those guys probably pat themselves on the back if they occasionally sell one to some sucker for $40 and earn a $38 profit. However, since they could sell ten times as many at a reasonable price of, say, $10, they could actually be earning a profit of $80. That's called basic profit maximization. Not to mention that half the people that would buy their $40 DVD-R are probably planning to sell copies of it themselves at a more reasonable price and put them out of business as far as that particular flick goes.

The amateur bootleggers and a few of the professionals (VSOM, Shocking Videos) need to figure out that the market price of bootlegs is maybe $8-12 and is going to go DOWN as downloading gets easier and easier. Charging outrageous prices is only going to make the number of sales go down much faster than profit margins are going to go up. Not to mention it's gonna turn even the non-tech-savvy old dogs like me to downloading.

Mark C.
10-28-2010, 03:26 PM
I don't download but the prices I see on Ioffer are not too bad, I just recently bought the complete EDISON TWINS which was 18 discs for only 50 dollars, and AMERICAN FAMILY an early reality show from the 70's was only 30 dollars for 4 discs. I think the people that over charge are just greedy, and I usally stay away from high prices for dvdr.
At the end of the day I dont mind paying a little more cause who wants the hassles of DL.

Jason C
10-28-2010, 04:17 PM
I've recently bought quite a few bootlegs from ioffer. If they came just in paper sleeves I've been paying around $5 to $7 and if they came in a DVD case with printed artwork they've been between $9 and $12.

Revengehorror.com has great artwork on high grade paper and thankfully they've reduced their prices recently.

Ian Z.
10-28-2010, 05:14 PM
It's only partially on topic, but I've only made an offer on iOffer once, and it was for a widescreen copy of THE KEEP since I don't download movies. The guy's price was fairly reasonable ($10) but I sent the guy two or three messages and never heard back. Kinda made me think I'd best stay away from iOffer. I ended up having a friend download the widescreen KEEP for me.

To your point, for those of us who don't download, bootleggers - for lack of a better term - could indeed do themselves a service by charging a proper amount, something like $10 per DVD-R with discounts for buying multiple titles. Of course, you can never be sure they're not going to stick you with lousy, unreadable media, so sometimes it's just better to do it yourself.

Jon Houghton
10-28-2010, 05:17 PM
One of these days I am going to order some stuff from cinema-de-bizarre. their stuff is priced reasonably and there is a discount for buying multiple titles.

Randy Thomas G
10-28-2010, 08:36 PM
I still do trades but downloading has given me incredible access to a huge number of very rare films for very little cost. Not to mention the great trend of fansubbing which has caught on the torrent sites, which opens up entire worlds of films otherwise inaccessible to most of us. I prefer now to save my money for the few worthwhile cult labels that are still around (Synapse, MM, Code Red, BU, Cult Epics).

Shane K
10-28-2010, 08:50 PM
Downloads. Most of these grey market clowns prey on the uninformed, and sell shit that's available legitimately on DVD. Those fucks can go choke on a bag of dicks.

Stefan A.
10-28-2010, 10:08 PM
I love SWV (Something Weird Video, of course), even though they may not fall into that category anymore of outright bootleggers. Mike Vraney actually has aquired the rights to release a lot of their own product now.

I also love Sinister Cinema. They're just a good company, even though I wish Greg Luce (a good upfront guy) had the resources to get rights to different movies like Mike Vraney does. But they're still a good company overall.

I don't have the patience to download and burn movies. And I hate to watch flicks on the computer, so I don't.

D.Wilt
10-28-2010, 11:04 PM
I don't do torrents but I do download from a few select sites. The things I buy from iOffer tend to be films not likely to be available for download the places I look--mainstream Hollywood stuff (but not blockbusters available on DVD or cult titles like horror movies that would be available for download)--lots of things come from TV broadcasts, old and new (like Fox Movie Channel, which isn't on my cable system). I've also gotten a lot of obscure British titles on iOffer, often quite reasonable in price.

So I use both methods, depending. And I will confess, for old, non-restored titles like these, I would probably NOT buy a "real" DVD if I could get the same film free or much cheaper as a DVD-R. However, I don't often have this dilemma, except for a fair amount of public domain stuff that Alpha Video released on DVD. I do have a LOT of Alpha DVDs, but if I only have a passing interest, I'll go for the download (nobody would sell a DVD-R cheaper than Alpha sells their actual DVDs, so Alpha always wins that battle).

Mattias Karlsson
10-29-2010, 07:09 AM
I think like this. There is always movies I want to see. So if I have 150$ every month to buy movies, what is the best use?
*Buy rare movies on bootlegs for 40$ and legit releases for 110$?
*Buy legit releases for 150$ and download the stuff that are not out on a legit release?

To me it is a easy choice. In todays market where many companys are not doing so well, I cannot see why I should pay some bootlegers when I can use the same money to support a legit company/release and STILL see the rare movie!

John G.
10-29-2010, 12:01 PM
I only download titles that are either commercially unavailable or are hopelessly OOP. I will never burn the film to a disc, however... I usually watch it once or twice on my computer and then delete the film. Of course if it's a title I really want, I will purchase the official release when (or if) it gets an official release.

I don't bother with bootlegs... a big waste of time and money, IMO.

Ian Z.
10-29-2010, 12:29 PM
Not to mention the great trend of fansubbing which has caught on the torrent sites, which opens up entire worlds of films otherwise inaccessible to most of us.

Do you ever wonder though whether those subtitles are even correct? That would worry me. Hell, I used to have a VHS from Luminous of The House With Windows That Laughed. There were several scenes in which their subtitles weren't even remotely close to what the subtitles on the Image disc said. I mean, not even the same ideas or context.

That would drive me batty if I was reading along to dialogue that some anonymous joker wrote himself based on what he *thought* the characters might be saying. Are there really so many multilingual people out there with such a love for rare films and that much time on their hands to create a subtitle track?

Darcy Parker
10-29-2010, 01:10 PM
I only download titles that are either commercially unavailable or are hopelessly OOP. I will never burn the film to a disc, however... I usually watch it once or twice on my computer and then delete the film. Of course if it's a title I really want, I will purchase the official release when (or if) it gets an official release.

I don't bother with bootlegs... a big waste of time and money, IMO.

That is how I roll, too. I don't believe in paying thieves for what I can steal for myself!

( just a euphemism, not an indictment of bootleggers)

I believe it is worse to pay someone for someone else's work if they likely got it from the same source I could take it from for free.

Jason C
10-29-2010, 03:16 PM
To me it is a easy choice. In todays market where many companys are not doing so well, I cannot see why I should pay some bootlegers when I can use the same money to support a legit company/release and STILL see the rare movie!

I think some these bootleggers provide a nice service and are worth supporting. There are a lot of great titles that have little hope of a legitimate release. I enjoy getting some artwork and a better picture than a highly compressed 700MB Divx AVI.

Wayne Schmidt
10-29-2010, 03:22 PM
I've seen a lot of boots that have simply converted the AVI to DVD format. And the majority of avi files (which seem to be falling out of favor to higher quality H.264 files) are more around 1.35gig (although there are still lots of lower rez avi files as well).

RichardDoyle
10-29-2010, 05:29 PM
It strikes me that folks who don't like bootleggers are tending to paint the worst picture of bootlegs possible, and folks who don't like downloads are doing the same. Like most religious arguments, folks don't tend to portray the other side in a fair light.

I remain agnostic on this issue. I want to see movies ... pretty much all movies if I could, and as long as I'm not stealing from folks, I'm not going to get too mussed over how I get them. Some bootleggers sell nice product at a reasonable price, some don't. I stick to the former. Why do I do it? I've only got so much time to spend on downloading movies ... I download some and buy others. As is usually the case, spending some money saves you some time.

I always check if a movie has a legitimate release before downloading or buying it from a bootlegger. If it does, I buy the legit release.

As far as I'm concerned, any other arguments about this amount to religious arguments in the sense that they aren't really based on fact, but rather are based on people's deeply held beliefs about this subject. There's no point in arguing with people about such things. You can't change their mind.

David Steigman
10-30-2010, 01:51 AM
I found it amazing that companies carry so many titles not released on any pressed DVD..Sinister Cinema, VSOM, Something Weird, Cinema de Bizarre , Video Screams have these HUGE catalogs of stuff that Im sure some fans would love on a real DVD..

Randy Thomas G
10-30-2010, 03:59 AM
Do you ever wonder though whether those subtitles are even correct? That would worry me. Hell, I used to have a VHS from Luminous of The House With Windows That Laughed. There were several scenes in which their subtitles weren't even remotely close to what the subtitles on the Image disc said. I mean, not even the same ideas or context.

That would drive me batty if I was reading along to dialogue that some anonymous joker wrote himself based on what he *thought* the characters might be saying. Are there really so many multilingual people out there with such a love for rare films and that much time on their hands to create a subtitle track?

I've been pretty impressed by certain fansubs, Merlin (Italian) and Turdis (Spanish) both seem like good fansubbers who often work in tandem with others to produce the best subs they can. I've never seen them pull a Tiger Lily with the films, although I'm sure there are cases of that by others. Certain languages, like Tagalog and Japanese are not nearly as often fansubbed either, which is unfortunate.

I'd prefer having the film in some form that I can actually watch and understand what the hell is going on rather than without subs. Some films, like actions films, don't need subs very much but a number are much better with a clearer idea of what is what. Obviously we're not getting first class subs like the work that was done on Fukasaku's yakuza films by HVE but I've found the quality quite good overall.

Andrew Ellis
10-30-2010, 12:37 PM
I'm agnostic too. I pay bootleggers sometimes for the service of dowloading and burning discs for me that are a hassle for me to download and burn myself. I'm not really paying them for somebody else's work. It just irks me when people don't seem to realize what the market price is for bootlegs. Or they don't tell people they're selling bootlegs in the first place. I remember some jerk on Ebay was claiming he cleaned out a DVD store in Canada and was selling all these obvious bootlegs with downloaded box art as legitimate DVDs. Some poor slobs were even "bidding" them into the stratosphere. That's a whole different thing than gray-market bootlegging--that's called fraud.

As far as subtitles, I've had some subtitles that are WAY off and/or don't even make sense in English. I suspect some people try to use some kind of computer translation program or they just have absolutely no grasp of the English language. Other times the subtitles are way out of sync. But this happens far less if I pay reasonable prices to bootleggers who know what they're doing and have a professional reputation to maintain than if I try to download and burn myself.

But as downloading and burning gets easier and good fansubs more readily available, even techno-phobes like me will probably quit buying bootlegs,

Robin Bougie
10-30-2010, 02:23 PM
I think some these bootleggers provide a nice service and are worth supporting.

I agree. The folks who are bewildered at those of us who continue to pay money for bootlegs when the films are easily available for download aren't much different than people who are bewildered that anyone would ever pay money for a meal in a resturant, when you can make the same thing for a fraction of the cost at home!

Sometimes you just don't want to do dishes, y'know?

That said, I really do wish some of these bootguys would figure out, as previously pointed out, that $20/$30 for a single movie is not the right price bracket for a homemade dvd-r anymore. I don't care what the movie is, or how rare it is. I charge $5 a movie when someone doesn't have anything to trade, and wants a rarity off my list. I know I'd feel like a crook charging more than $10 a movie.

R Oliver
11-02-2010, 01:23 AM
Whilst i can understand that some dont have either the skills or the time , to burn downloads.
I do get annoyed at these bootleggers who sell free fansubs or fandubs made by people for the use in trade circles or torrent sites.
Take for example spending two weeks of spare time to produce a Dual Audio Custom with subtitles , done without pay, soley for the benefit of film fans only to find some douchebag selling it on ioffer for $10.
Plus with the many Giallo fansubs now being made available by merlin and turdis, these are avi converted to dvd that your buying, e.g La Muerte ronda a Mónica that Cinema de Bizarre are selling is an avi to dvd convert.

The bottem line which Robin stated these bootleggers will continue to charge high prices as long as people are paying them.
A download ,a video-ts folder on your harddrive to burn. or a zdd bought one with a nice cover, most will opt for the later as they think they are getting something better.

Mattias Karlsson
11-02-2010, 10:40 AM
Nice post R Oliver.

RichardDoyle
11-03-2010, 06:26 PM
Whilst i can understand that some dont have either the skills or the time , to burn downloads.
I do get annoyed at these bootleggers who sell free fansubs or fandubs made by people for the use in trade circles or torrent sites.
Take for example spending two weeks of spare time to produce a Dual Audio Custom with subtitles , done without pay, soley for the benefit of film fans only to find some douchebag selling it on ioffer for $10.
Plus with the many Giallo fansubs now being made available by merlin and turdis, these are avi converted to dvd that your buying, e.g La Muerte ronda a Mónica that Cinema de Bizarre are selling is an avi to dvd convert.

The bottem line which Robin stated these bootleggers will continue to charge high prices as long as people are paying them.
A download ,a video-ts folder on your harddrive to burn. or a zdd bought one with a nice cover, most will opt for the later as they think they are getting something better.

But as I say, you're talking about essentially the worst case scenarios, and nobody's saying that people should or do buy from bootleggers under all circumstances.

Also, keep in mind that not everyone's as dumb as you assume they are. I wouldn't buy something from ZDD because I think it's BETTER. I'd download one movie and buy a different one because now I have two movies. Given the amount of free time I have, if I stuck to downloading movies, I'd only have had one. It's an economic decision, not a technical one.

R Oliver
11-05-2010, 01:00 PM
I dont assume people are dumb , Richard made a better point , that not all people have the time to download , and prefer the bootleggers as its a simple paypal transaction to get their films. I personally have used ZDD a lot in the past , for that reason and that his titles at the time were not available to download anywhere.

With regard to people not wanting to leave their computers on to download and seed back, the use of a seedbox would make it easier for people to maintain accounts at sites.

finally as a worst case scenario with downloading , you end up with a unplayable damaged file, and the time you took to download is lost.
In bootleggers defence they at least can send you a replacement or an different film.

Werner Von Wallenrod
11-06-2010, 09:26 PM
Usually, if a movie I'm interested in isn't available commercially, it also isn't available as a download or bootleg. Is there some great online spot I don't know about?

Randy Thomas G
11-07-2010, 01:13 PM
You mean you know where to get Turkish Batman and Robin in a legit release?

Cinemagedon has loads of releases that have never been commercially released or are long OOP.

Werner Von Wallenrod
11-08-2010, 09:07 AM
LOL Well, I'm not sure Turkish Batman would fall under "movies I'm interested in"... I was thinking more like:
Woody Allen's Men of Crisis: The Harvey Wallinger Story
Catherine Breillat's Nocturnal Uproar (with English subs)
or Dirty Like an Angel (there's a Spanish disc, but no English translation)
BBC's other Christmas ghost stories (only 2 or 3 have been released)
Richard Foreman's Strong Medicine
Dennis Potter's Midnight Movie (not to mention all of his old, unreleased teleplays from the 60s and 70s)

I'll check out Cinemagedon - thanks for the tip!

Harry Doble
11-08-2010, 09:46 AM
Karagarga deserves a mention too.

Pity that amongst all the rarities there is a lot of commercially available content up for grabs on both those sites which will offend some people.

Robin Bougie
11-08-2010, 09:50 PM
Karagarga deserves a mention too.

Pity that amongst all the rarities there is a lot of commercially available content up for grabs on both those sites which will offend some people.

Thats the main reason I can't recommend those sites. If only the mods would clean them up and offer rare and commercially unavailable titles exclusively, it would be so much easier to get behind them. It's a real shame.

Ian Z.
11-09-2010, 05:36 PM
Thats the main reason I can't recommend those sites. If only the mods would clean them up and offer rare and commercially unavailable titles exclusively, it would be so much easier to get behind them. It's a real shame.

Quite Agreed.

RichardDoyle
11-09-2010, 06:00 PM
Thats the main reason I can't recommend those sites. If only the mods would clean them up and offer rare and commercially unavailable titles exclusively, it would be so much easier to get behind them. It's a real shame.

The same considerations apply to bootleggers too. Every site I know has at least a few titles for sale that they shouldn't.

Personally, I make sure that my own house is in order and I'm only grabbing stuff that is not available in some other form. They aren't benefiting financially and if I'm not taking stuff I shouldn't, I feel I'm on the up and up.

Wayne Schmidt
11-09-2010, 06:19 PM
LOL Well, I'm not sure Turkish Batman would fall under "movies I'm interested in"... I was thinking more like:
Woody Allen's Men of Crisis: The Harvey Wallinger Story
Catherine Breillat's Nocturnal Uproar (with English subs)
or Dirty Like an Angel (there's a Spanish disc, but no English translation)
BBC's other Christmas ghost stories (only 2 or 3 have been released)
Richard Foreman's Strong Medicine
Dennis Potter's Midnight Movie (not to mention all of his old, unreleased teleplays from the 60s and 70s)

I'll check out Cinemagedon - thanks for the tip!The BBC Ghost Stories would probably be on Cinemageddon's sister site, TV Vault. CG is pretty picky about allowing tv content (unless it's something like an MOW). You might also try TheBox for the BBC shows . . . . they're UK material only. I know I got a bunch of the Ghost Stories from somewhere, but I'm thinking it was probably the Usenet groups.

Werner Von Wallenrod
11-10-2010, 02:55 AM
Oh cool, - what's the URL for that TV Vault site?

AnthonyT
11-14-2010, 01:58 AM
What I find ironic is that pressed DVDs are super cheap. Many MGM and Warner titles have dropped in price. Some of the MGM titles are sold on Amazon by Amazon for 4 bucks new! Yet, titles that are being manufactured on demand, such as Warner Archive or any other studio following, are charging $20, while all others on Amazon are charging $26 or more! So its like a reversal of price is happening. The thing these studios feared most are being sold at premium prices and yet, no one is bootlegging these which could easily be done. Go figure.

D.Wilt
11-14-2010, 12:17 PM
The BBC Ghost Stories would probably be on Cinemageddon's sister site, TV Vault. CG is pretty picky about allowing tv content (unless it's something like an MOW). You might also try TheBox for the BBC shows . . . . they're UK material only. I know I got a bunch of the Ghost Stories from somewhere, but I'm thinking it was probably the Usenet groups.

I found the BBC Ghost Stories (all of them from the 1970s, plus the precursor from the late '60s and the newer versions from the 2000s) on HorrorHaven and/or Surrealmoviez (there is some overlap in content, I confess I did not check today which had which). Both of these are invitation-only sites, but you can contact them to ask for an invite.

I'm working my way thru these TV shows (actually, most if not all were shot on film rather than videotape, which is nice) right now. :D

Werner Von Wallenrod
11-16-2010, 03:44 AM
Hey, thanks! I found 'em all on HorrorHaven... working on DLing them now. =)

Andrew Ellis
11-22-2010, 02:19 PM
Here's a challenge for anybody that swears by downloads: I've been trying to find a 1978 Italian movie called "Cugine Mie". None of the bootleggers I know of have it, but supposedly you can dowload it. I haven't done it though, first, because you need to give a credit card number to some service in order to get almost any "free" download of that movie, and second, because I suspect if I do give them my credit card number they will pull a "bait and switch" and not actually have it anyway.

But if anyone can successfully download that on to a DVD-R (it doesn't have to have subtitles), PM me and I'll make it worth your while trade-wise. I DO have the Turkish Batman, for instance (but no subtitles alas because I actually recorded it off Turkish television), and lots of other rare stuff.

Randy Thomas G
11-23-2010, 12:29 AM
No good torrent site would ask for your credit card number, that is a scam, avoid.

Wayne Schmidt
11-23-2010, 12:51 AM
I don't know, but I suspect if you Google just about any film title or music album and add "torrent" to the description it's going to give you a bunch of these phony sites that don't have the files and ask for credit cards or personal information. As Randy said, avoid like the plague.

Edward McDougal
11-23-2010, 12:57 AM
why the fuck is anyone buying bootlegs

use the goddamn internet.

It costs less than $2, if you use just a disc

Get the oop film, you need to see it, then purchase the dvd as soon as it becomes available to help legitimate companies stay in business and create an awesome collection

who the fuck wants bootlegs in cases and covers made by someone, next to there Severin, Mondo Macabro, SWV, etc LEGIT DVD's??????

Andrew Ellis
11-23-2010, 02:52 PM
Well, I think we just answered that question. I recently googled that film "Cugine Mie" and I got a number of hits, but every single one I followed led to a point where someone who SAID they had it available wanted my credit card number for a "free" download. Well my mom didn't raise no dummies, so I'm just not gonna do that.

Now suppose a bootlegger who I trust (like Craig Ledbetter at ETC) happened to get that movie. Would it not be worth it to get it from him for $10? It's better than getting scammed one way or another on a "free" download.

I have succesfully downloaded a number of movies, but right now there are just to be many technical problems and shady operators out there for me to unequivocally say that is the way to go. But if ANYONE else can get that movie without getting ripped off, like I said, I'll compensate you trade-wise and I'll gladly eat some crow.

Werner Von Wallenrod
11-23-2010, 11:44 PM
why the fuck is anyone buying bootlegs

use the goddamn internet.

Because it's not so easy if you don't have an "in." I never heard of any of the three sites that were suggested to me here (and could never even find that TV Vault site), and I only found them thanks to this site (got all the BBC Ghost Stories that weren't already on DVD - thanks again!). Of those three, one wouldn't let me in and another kicked me out after like two days (don't know what that was about). I understand they have to circle the wagons so they don't get shut down or anything, and I'm not complaining; but what that means is most of us can't DL stuff, so those that can are able to burn them and sell them for $ to the rest of us.

Ian F
11-23-2010, 11:59 PM
I don't know, but I suspect if you Google just about any film title or music album and add "torrent" to the description it's going to give you a bunch of these phony sites that don't have the files and ask for credit cards or personal information. As Randy said, avoid like the plague.

Yeah, most of them just take what you searched for and paste the title in. At least that's what I've observed with file search engines (fake sponsored results on the top), which can be pretty funny depending on what you put in.

Randy Thomas G
11-24-2010, 01:20 AM
Well, I think we just answered that question. I recently googled that film "Cugine Mie" and I got a number of hits, but every single one I followed led to a point where someone who SAID they had it available wanted my credit card number for a "free" download. Well my mom didn't raise no dummies, so I'm just not gonna do that.


Andrew, by googling you're coming across scam sites and what are called public trackers, they are not reliable and often have viruses on them. There is loads of good stuff available on private trackers like CG, Demonoid, KG, ADC, even Puretna.com but you usually need someone to invite you to them. None of the torrent sites I frequent have the film you're looking for, but it is probably available somewhere. There are still some films not available or unseeded even on the torrent sites though.

Not trying to change your mind, I've bought a lot from grey market dealers and still do physical trades.

As for TV Vault, it seems to be either down or has moved, I never used it much myself. Demonoid has most of the TV series I look for, even the more obscure stuff.

Chris H.
11-24-2010, 04:51 PM
http://tv-vault.me/

John M. Bernhard
11-24-2010, 05:29 PM
I don't know, but I suspect if you Google just about any film title or music album and add "torrent" to the description it's going to give you a bunch of these phony sites that don't have the files and ask for credit cards or personal information. As Randy said, avoid like the plague.

In addition, you can add 'download' to the search and I have found rare movies on rapidshare, megaupload ect type direct download sites. These are always split into RAR files which need to be opened and joined, and takes a bit more time. I think there is as mush material available via direct download as via torrents...or pretty close to it.

Jeremy Slate
11-24-2010, 08:46 PM
Is something up with Cinemageddon? It's been a while since I've been there, but I can't seem to find it online.

Wayne Schmidt
11-24-2010, 11:36 PM
No, they're up and running.

Patrick B.
11-24-2010, 11:43 PM
If there's a bootleg, there's also a source, so just get the VHS or the DVD. Even if it's rare.

Jeremy Slate
11-25-2010, 02:13 AM
Still Cinemageddon.org right?

Randy Thomas G
11-25-2010, 05:09 AM
Cinemageddon.net

John Mc
11-26-2010, 09:24 AM
A very complex discussion this, I find the whole 'bootlegger' thing a little hard to get my head around these days. The cost associated with buying a DVD this way is very hard to legitimise.

i have had dealings with only 2 online suppliers, both with mixed reactions on my part..the first just didnt supply anything near the quality i anticipated, non english audio when clearly stating on his site "english audio" on one particular DVD, with no reply to my mails when questioned over this..once bitten..

The second site i tried also had less than i expected image wise, my order went missing and never showed up initially, to their credit a complete new order was sent with no charge, good business acumen to be fair. But in both instances the sites gave image ratings that failed to match the product..
I can only assume AVI's were converted and burned to Disc, which quite possibly were not great to start with, VHS rips probably, but the DVD burn further reduced the image..

Paying someone in some cases comparable retail charges for shit conversions and shitty printed artwork is plain dumb for OOP films.
The other option, joining a private tracker with strict controls on new release torrents, to give the producers of new product even on old films, some chance to find a market without 'free' competition, is preferable to me.
A properly run private tracker will give you all the info you need on quality and file size, most will have screenshots of actual footage from the flick, all designed to make you have some idea of what you are getting..cutting out the guess work.

For this, you must give back, share back, upload your own rips, whatever necessary to keep your give at least equal to your take..Not much to ask to eliminate the disappointment of spending possibly hundreds of dollars on inferior products with no profits going to the 'right' people..

I have downloaded and consequently bought many many titles i would never have known of had it not been for the ability to sample first..
That said, some titles are just not available in any way, be it VHS or DVD, sharing the goodness via download where no-one is making a profit is far more acceptable to me than paying someone to do it for me, making money they don't deserve essentially.

Werner Von Wallenrod
11-26-2010, 10:44 AM
The other option, joining a private tracker with strict controls on new release torrents, to give the producers of new product even on old films, some chance to find a market without 'free' competition, is preferable to me.

Like where, though? Is this really a viable option for most people? Most people aren't that tech savy or have a great rare collection of things they could upload that would be worth peoples' time.

It seems like, in practice, most download sites either don't maintain the standards you describe (i.e. they're just full of commercial DVD rips and junk), or, in order not to get shut down, they keep their memberships to small, exclusive groups, which means most film-lovers are stuck anyway.

RichardDoyle
11-26-2010, 06:47 PM
Still Cinemageddon.org right?

They migrated the whole site about a month and a half ago.

RichardDoyle
11-26-2010, 06:54 PM
What I find my head really hard to get around is why conversations like this persist when both sides have justified themselves dozens of time over.

Why buy bootlegs? Because it's my money and I can do with it whatever I want. More specifically ... because it saves time and effort. Spending money usually does. I don't work 40-50 hours a week to spend all my free time downloading and burning every movie I want to see to DVD. I download quite a few, but buying some gets me more in the same amount of time.

Paying retail prices for bootlegs??? Jesus Christ ... if you think that's the only option you haven't looked very hard. I have never spent over $10 on a bootleg.

John Mc
11-26-2010, 07:03 PM
Like where, though? Is this really a viable option for most people? Most people aren't that tech savy or have a great rare collection of things they could upload that would be worth peoples' time.

It seems like, in practice, most download sites either don't maintain the standards you describe (i.e. they're just full of commercial DVD rips and junk)

The tech savy thing is a cop out really, everyone online here is tech savy enough to surf the web, read forums, register etc...theres plenty of forums based around torrenting, easy to find, easy to read, easy to understand...
learning how isnt rocket science.

Agreed, there are shitloads of bad trackers, as there are shitloads of crap movie discussion forums, ya gotta have a look, find whats suits you..

Look above you, great place to start, and very strict, sticks to their guidelines rigidly..the proper way to do it, if all trackers were like em movie fans would be in heaven.

Now i'm not advocating Dloading, its not for everyone, i know some people do have reservations and feel its not the right thing to do. I understand that and accept that, but for me its the lesser of 2 evils compared to bootleggers making illegal money for inferior product.

John Mc
11-26-2010, 07:08 PM
I don't work 40-50 hours a week to spend all my free time downloading and burning every movie I want to see to DVD.


As a collecter i find the 'chase' as enjoyable as the watching sometimes...i get great satisfaction from finding a hard to find flick.
:)

Jeremy Slate
11-26-2010, 09:09 PM
They migrated the whole site about a month and a half ago.

Thanks much! Thanks also Randy Thomas G.

Werner Von Wallenrod
11-27-2010, 01:36 AM
The tech savy thing is a cop out really, everyone online here is tech savy enough to surf the web, read forums, register etc...theres plenty of forums based around torrenting, easy to find, easy to read, easy to understand...
learning how isnt rocket science.

Maybe I just travel in stupid circles (lol), but not many people I know would really know how to start with a .torrent file and end up with a playable DVD-R.


Look above you, great place to start,

You mean Cinemageddon? That's actually one of the sites I was referring to that most people can't get in. I was in for like a day (when it was recommended earlier in this thread) and then my account was closed. I mean, I don't really care because they didn't have the stuff I was looking for anyway. But it just illustrates my point that most of these are very tight-knit and unreliable as a source.

Another site that was recommended above (I think it was Surrealmoviez) has yet to approve me from like two weeks ago. ...I don't think they're going to.

Unlike forums, I couldn't even look in there to see if it suited until I applied and was approved, which was like a 2-day process. So if you don't know of a site in advance through friends... you just go around applying to all these closed sites that pop up in google, hope you get in (and that they're not just trap sites filled with trojans and spyware), and then just look and see if they have anything you're interested in?

Sure it's a great set-up for small groups with more or less the same interests who can upload and download certain cult films back and forth to each other. And I'm not knocking Cinemageddon or any of the others - they're clearly cool for some people. But I don't see that model really helping most film fans who are just trying to see movies that are unavailable commercially.

Bootleg sites can be tricky to find, too. But at least once you get there, you can view everything without a special membership, click a paypal button, and get something you can confidently put in your player.

Mattias Karlsson
11-27-2010, 11:56 AM
I have never had any problem with cinemageddon and I have found almost anything I have been looking for and a lot of stuff I didn't know about.

Jonathan Douglas
11-27-2010, 03:59 PM
I tend to use the stagevu site quite a bit for watching or downloading. Beam me up or down, Scotty.