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View Full Version : So how about that Mel Gibson, huh?



Daniel S.S.
07-13-2010, 06:57 PM
Never quite heard anything like it in my life. Sure sounds like he's gone completely off the deep end. Some of his rants are the closest I've heard to emulating scenes from The Exorcist without (to my knowledge) trying.

Think he can recover from this one? Hard to see it but I guess you never know.

Marshall Crist
07-13-2010, 07:02 PM
Oh, in terms of his "career" I think it will blow over. No one is accountable for anything anymore. Almost typed "accuntable." I like that better.

Stefan A.
07-13-2010, 07:06 PM
If I'm not mistaken, he's an alcoholic. Of course, the things he have said and did are awful. But it's probably b/c of his alcoholism. That's not an excuse. I just wish he'd get help. And I do feel for the people he's negatively effected. All around, it's just a shame.

Zane C.
07-13-2010, 07:14 PM
Hmmm...is there a new Mel Gibson controversy? Musta missed this one. :confused:

Paul Casey
07-13-2010, 08:00 PM
Some of the gems he comes out with are priceless. I hope this never ends.

Paul Francis
07-13-2010, 08:17 PM
I think he was diagnosed as bi-polar a couple of years ago,so the hardcore boozing combined with mental illness is sure to produce some zany results.

Troy Howarth
07-13-2010, 08:27 PM
He definitely has issues - none of that has anything to do with his talents as an actor or director (I rather like him in the former category, but not so much in the latter). If you want my honest take, I think he comes off like a racist with a major anger management issue, but, again, that shouldn't detract from his work on screen.

Paul Casey
07-13-2010, 08:32 PM
And his wife's no prize for just throwing it all right into the media. I mean, if she's gonna play the "woe is me card," seek private help first. Seeing what she's doing now, well, she's not getting my pity.

Aaron G
07-13-2010, 08:33 PM
There's nothing wrong with Mel. He is just Jesus Christ, but he's not a Jew. The Jews are just crucifying him for the 'passion' which proved that and made Mel a very rich and powerful man, a man with enough power and influence to tell the Jews who control holywood and make all those vile and fucking reatrded horrible films that we have to watch. They are planning this media campaign against him, it's a modern day christ. Fucked if i know who the ROman Empire are in this anal-ogy,

Either way the publicity makes Mel even more in demand.

And besides why did he marry some fucking Russian email whore and have a kid straight away with her, and then she was taping everything. Kinda obvious she was a gold-digger who don't go with a broke nigger.

Mel should cut his passion off and make a movie out of it. It'll make billions!

Troy Howarth
07-13-2010, 08:34 PM
And his wife's no prize for just throwing it all right into the media. I mean, if she's gonna play the "woe is me card," seek private help first. Seeing what she's doing now, well, she's not getting my pity.

You're absolutely right in that. I also have to wonder - WHY is so much of this stuff on tape? Was she provoking him in the hopes of leaking stuff like this later? Mind you - it doesn't mean he was right to say some of the things he said, but I'd agree that she doesn't come off like a class act for doing what she's done, either.

Christopher B.
07-13-2010, 08:53 PM
I met Mel many years ago, late-80's--he gave me the creeps and my interaction with him was not pleasant. I thought back then that he was an entitled fundamentalist schmuck. I still think he is...except now I would add that he's crazy, mean and when he drinks, knows absolutely nothing about what Jesus was supposed to have said and taught. I don't support any of his movies and even after re-hab, he'll still be a fundamentalist schmuck.

Marshall Crist
07-13-2010, 09:28 PM
I AGREE WITH EVERYONE!

Daniel S.S.
07-13-2010, 09:38 PM
And his wife's no prize for just throwing it all right into the media. I mean, if she's gonna play the "woe is me card," seek private help first.

Well the only thing about that is, because of who he is and the circumstances, their entire relationship was a public affair broadcast all over the tabloid media. So maybe she felt she had to throw out a pre-emptive strike in order to get the public on her side. As Michael Corleone would say, it was the smart move. Not that I don't believe she knew she hit the lottery the first time he looked at her "that way." After hearing those recordings I also would believe she genuinely wishes she hadn't gotten involved.


I met Mel many years ago, late-80's--he gave me the creeps and my interaction with him was not pleasant.

Sounds very interesting, if you'd care to elaborate...


I AGREE WITH EVERYONE!

Here's where you're wrong.... :D

George D
07-13-2010, 09:42 PM
It was all downhill after THE ROAD WARRIOR.

Marshall Crist
07-13-2010, 09:43 PM
Here's where you're wrong.... :D

I ESPECIALLY AGREE WITH YOU!

Vincent Pereira
07-13-2010, 10:07 PM
You're absolutely right in that. I also have to wonder - WHY is so much of this stuff on tape? Was she provoking him in the hopes of leaking stuff like this later? Mind you - it doesn't mean he was right to say some of the things he said, but I'd agree that she doesn't come off like a class act for doing what she's done, either.

It's on tape because after they broke up Mel started calling her and threatening her, so she started recording the phone calls for her own safety. Also, radaronline has said they didn't get the tapes from her. I'm guessing somebody working for the courts leaked them for some money. I'm frankly amazed that you'd suggest she "provoked" him. Listen to her on those tapes, she's calm and collected and he's just a disgusting, ugly man. He's obviously an awful human being and if he loses everything, he'll have richly deserved it.

Vincent

Horace Cordier
07-13-2010, 11:27 PM
I had an interesting talk about all this with a Russian friend of mine. He had an interesting take on this whole thing.

The woman, he said, is a classic gold-digger, and he said its very much a cultural thing with these Russian women who latch on to wealthy guys and its all VERY mercenary. Right down to the fast pregnancy and everything else. I thought my friend was being pretty harsh but he pulled the "I'm Russian and I understand these women and you do not" card so I had to give in. :D

However, while I think this pathetic "pop star" Russian woman is slightly despicable I actually feel sorry for her. Because while it may not be nice to be a gold digger, its not exactly a death penalty offense. And nobody deserves the crap that Mel is dishing out on these tapes.

And Gibson?

He is an insane NUT. He manages to actually hit the asshole lottery on ALL points. He is racist, sexist, violent, and homophobic. He tells a woman holding a baby that she deserved to get hit. He whines like a 10 year old about how she has no "soul". Some of this would be funny if it didn't involve violence.

Forget Tom Cruise. This guy is going to kill someone if he isn't locked up soon.

Robin Bougie
07-14-2010, 12:06 AM
OMG A GOLD DIGGING WIFE IN HOLLYWOOD?! THAT IS UNHEARD OF AND VERY SERIOUS OFFENCE. Haha, "provoked him"? Puh-lease.

Meh, I do believe that his career in films and TV is over. I predict that he won't recover from this, the same way Michael Richards won't ever recover from his "niggers!!" rant. That shit is career suicide. From what I can tell, the "rules" of bad PR game in mainstream America seem to be: You can be racist against jews, be sexist against women (this oddly actually seems to help a career), and totally hate gays, but it's all over if you use the N word and don't have the skin colour to back it up.

Chris Koenig
07-14-2010, 12:45 AM
Some of the gems he comes out with are priceless. I hope this never ends.

In regards to these horrible statements, I think my favorite out off all of them is, "I'll fucking burn the house down with you in it...but first you'll blow me!" Of course, the craziest line is him yelling, "I'll bury you in the fucking rose garden!" Which, if I might add, way to give away your implied murder threats on tape, Mel; incriminate yourself further!


Anyways, gonna throw in more than just my usual two-cents worth on this subject...

This whole thing has come off as quite the train-wreck for Gibson and, suprise suprise, the guy hasn't spoken to the media about it. Of course, considering Gibson does rant on the tapes that his career is over, it's quite possible that he just doesn't give a shit anymore. I, personally, don't think this will kill off his career entirely, but it certainly will halt it for a while. And yes, you would think he would've learned from his 2005 drunk driving arrest in Florida, which resulted in some pretty vicious anti-Semetic remarks aimed at the arresting officers. But no, it seems like that was just a passing phase for him.

Frankly, I'll be honest, it's really hard for me to seperate Mel Gibson the actor/director and Mel Gibson the person due to his past incidents of anti-Semetic and homophobic comments, and this recent incident doesn't help matters further for me. Let me just set the record straight: I think Gibson is an awful actor and an even lousy director. Okay, that aspect of Gibson's "art" aside, after hearing these audio clips it does confirm to me that he is indeed a shitty human being. Yes, we all have our moments of rage and anger. But, even so, I've NEVER flown off the handle like Gibson has, and I've been burned pretty badly in my life by others and felt the anger. But do I go nutty like this? Nope, I don't. And 'No', I don't consider myself to be a perfect human being either; I have flaws and have made mistakes as well, but unlike Mel Gibson I, as a person, am willing to admit them!

In any case, to me this recent issue confirms Gibson not only has anger problems, but the guy clearly has racial and male-domination issues as well. I mean, let's consider the following: Gibson yells at this Russian chic, going as far as saying that "she'll be raped by a bunch of niggers" and throwing the Mexican-racial slur of "wetback" at her as well. Of course, the racial issues aren't that big of a suprise to me: his anti-Semetic tirade in Florida apparently wasn't enough to reveal his true side to the mainstream general public, no thanks to his douchebag father Hutton Gibson's attitude towards Jews rubbing off on Mel! For the male-domination aspect, his rants of how she just needs to "stand there and smile and blow me!" (which, frankly, I will admit I laughed my ass off at the line...and I'm sure for all the wrong reasons!) and other foul comments, shows there is a real power-trip going on! And yeah, Gibson bitches about this woman's "fake tits"; if that's such an issue with Mel then why did he end up having a relationship with her?!?! Add to that, the threats of wanting to beat her head in with a baseball bat, punching her and saying he'll bury her corpse in a rose garden...seriously, how can anyone forgive this guy? Yeah, I'm sure there's another side to this story, but again if Gibson wanted to save some face he would've opened up by now and started defending himself right away.

As for the issue of alcoholism, I can see that being a huge play here. But, from the evidence on tape, he doesn't sound drunk and is clearly expressing himself effectively and, hard to believe, coherantly under the yelling and screaming. But even so, his rants are just so out there and crazed that I cannot give this guy a break. And hey, it looks like his "good friend" Whoopi Goldberg is defending Mel and saying that she knows he's not a racist (i.e., but the recent evidence of this tape, and his anti-Semetic and homophobic comments of past, speaks otherwise!). Of course, Goldberg raked Michael Richards over the coals for the screwed-up racist joke he made years ago, despite Richards apologizing like no tomorrow! But then, Goldberg wasn't "friends" with Richards. Yeah, great excuse there, Whoopi...what else you got to offer? But then, Richards isn't a big movie celeb like Gibson is, so Gibson got the free pass while Richards has to live it down.

I apologize if I'm taking this a bit too personally, but despite finding the "twisted" humor of it all (some of his comments are so wild that you can't help but say to yourself "Man, is this for REAL!?"), deep within the recordings I can hear the cries of a madman who blames the whole world for his problems even though it's really the Man in the Mirror, Mr. Mel Gibson himself! And if he can't put an end to his stupid bullshit, I have to echo the statement of poster Horace Cordier in that Gibson might fly off even further and attempt to put his horrible intents into action! And if that happens, and I hope to God it doesn't, then THAT might be the final nail in the coffin!

Also, to mention something on the lighter side of Mel Gibson, as I live outside of Chicago I usually try to tune in the radio and listen to Roe Conn and Richard Roper. They played the tapes on their show to hillarious effect (i.e., in that Conn and Roper helped push the humor for sure). After that, Roper mentioned Gibson had completed principal photography on a new movie called "The Beaver", which was helmed by Jodie Foster. In any rate, Roper came across a recent article on the Gibson issue and was quite amused by the main headline of the piece which goes as follows: "Will Mel Gibson's vicious comments affect Jode Foster's 'Beaver'"!

Aaron G
07-14-2010, 05:29 AM
I just heard some exerpts from his tape on the 6pm News here... whoah, I thought it was a bit of a joke at first, but some of the rants are pretty nasty.

He starting to make FATTY ARBUCKLE seem 'civilised'!

But I still think its a Conspiracy by the Elders of Zion to destroy his career because he made 'the Passion'.

You don't mess with the Zohan. Nor with the Russians. Just ask Hitler!

You just don't do that motherfuck. :p

Fred Anderson
07-14-2010, 06:26 AM
Mel is out. I won't spend another dime on that fucker. Maybe I'll stick to downloading his movies instead.

To blame everything on the woman, which is a common thing when it comes to violence against women, is just disturbing. Even if she's a gold-digger (really, who that fuck cares about that?), she don't deserves to get those threats against her. It's strange how people so easy can defend a truly disturbed man like Mr Catholic.

I don't give a fuck if he's famous or not, a wife-beater is always a wife-beater.

John G.
07-14-2010, 08:26 AM
Holy shit, those tapes (found on youtube) are absolutely jaw dropping. :eek:

As to whether this will end Gibson's career, after his anti-Jew rant APOCALYPTO I think opened number 1 at the box office. This may signal the end of an acting career, but I think he may still be able to work behind the camera, disappearing behind quasi-historical films spoken in dead languages. :D

Word is that DiCaprio wants to drop out of his viking movie.

Todd J
07-14-2010, 09:25 AM
[QUOTE=Fred Anderson;821164]It's strange how people so easy can defend a truly disturbed man like Mr Catholic.QUOTE]

Man, don't bring in your own religious hatred this.

Troy Howarth
07-14-2010, 09:27 AM
It's on tape because after they broke up Mel started calling her and threatening her, so she started recording the phone calls for her own safety. Also, radaronline has said they didn't get the tapes from her. I'm guessing somebody working for the courts leaked them for some money. I'm frankly amazed that you'd suggest she "provoked" him. Listen to her on those tapes, she's calm and collected and he's just a disgusting, ugly man. He's obviously an awful human being and if he loses everything, he'll have richly deserved it.

Vincent

Don't be too amazed, Vincent - I can't help but be a tad cynical... I wasn't aware that these calls occurred after threats had been made, and that was the reason for her recording them, so kindly don't judge me too harshly for asking an innocent question. Believe it or not, I'm not as monstrous as all that.

Troy Howarth
07-14-2010, 09:29 AM
OMG A GOLD DIGGING WIFE IN HOLLYWOOD?! THAT IS UNHEARD OF AND VERY SERIOUS OFFENCE. Haha, "provoked him"? Puh-lease.

Puh-lease... like I said, it was an innocent enough question. Unlike some people here, I haven't followed the case that closely, so I was unaware of how this all came about. I guess I should avoid asking questions in future, lest people think I'm being a despicable human being.

Troy Howarth
07-14-2010, 09:31 AM
Holy shit, those tapes (found on youtube) are absolutely jaw dropping. :eek:

As to whether this will end Gibson's career, after his anti-Jew rant APOCALYPTO I think opened number 1 at the box office. This may signal the end of an acting career, but I think he may still be able to work behind the camera, disappearing behind quasi-historical films spoken in dead languages. :D

Word is that DiCaprio wants to drop out of his viking movie.

Look at the groups he's managed to directly offend: blacks, women, the Jews... I'd say that unless people who fit into these demographics are plenty forgiving, he's lost a very sizable chunk of any potential audience. There are also plenty of people outside of that demographic who are disgusted by him. Of course, audiences may prove to have short memories, but I kind of doubt it. Tom Cruise has been somewhat in the shitter ever since he went nuts in public a few years back, and I think Mel will be no exception to this.

Troy Howarth
07-14-2010, 09:33 AM
Mel is out. I won't spend another dime on that fucker. Maybe I'll stick to downloading his movies instead.

To blame everything on the woman, which is a common thing when it comes to violence against women, is just disturbing. Even if she's a gold-digger (really, who that fuck cares about that?), she don't deserves to get those threats against her. It's strange how people so easy can defend a truly disturbed man like Mr Catholic.

I don't give a fuck if he's famous or not, a wife-beater is always a wife-beater.

I don't see how anybody here was putting all the blame on her - what people WERE saying is, she is also accountable for her own actions, and to go to the press to cash in on this isn't exactly classy. Sorry, but it just isn't. Does that mean she deserves to be threatened, beaten, or whatever? Hell no! But again, nobody said that. (Now that being said, I see Vincent is saying she DIDN'T leak the tapes herself; again, a point of interest that I was unaware of... if so, then I absolutely take all that back about her actions in that regard.)

And just as it's not cool for Gibson to go on a rant about the Jews, it's also not cool for you or anybody else on this forum to start ranting about the Catholics.

Chris Koenig
07-14-2010, 10:02 AM
And just as it's not cool for Gibson to go on a rant about the Jews, it's also not cool for you or anybody else on this forum to start ranting about the Catholics.

I don't think Fred was going off on the Catholics "in-general", just towards Mel Gibson. And quite honestly, I have to say Gibson's whole religious side is just a facade to hide his real issues.

But then, that's not to say his extreme Catholicism has gotten the better of him: this is, after all, the same Mel Gibson who said "there is no salvation outside the church" and went on record with it. As a Catholic myself, though I will admit I'm currently not too dedicated to the Church due to the problems they apparently just won't fix, I find that to be pretty damn insulting, especially to his fanbase that might not consist of just "Catholics-only" (to me, the whole Catholics vs. Prodestants is no big deal...same God, same Jesus, both with slightly different translated Bible and both different Christian religion names). Yeah, I'm sure that's Mel's personal beliefs and I would respect that...if he just kept those particular beliefs to himself and not go overboard with them!

And considering Mel goes off on those tapes by saying, "The reason I left my wife is because we have no spiritual connection..." I can only assume he must've had a huge problem with his wife being a Prodestant, despite saying glowing things about her over the years. Of course, to me that's no big deal: if she loves God and Jesus, I would think that's all that should've mattered to Mel, if he really is a true believer, as opposed to her being either Catholic, Prodestant or whatever.

Robin Bougie
07-14-2010, 10:04 AM
Puh-lease... like I said, it was an innocent enough question. Unlike some people here, I haven't followed the case that closely, so I was unaware of how this all came about. I guess I should avoid asking questions in future, lest people think I'm being a despicable human being.

Hey, I was just skoffing and goofing around in my goofy way. Don't read too much into it, my friend. Also: A reasonably thick skin is a real asset on a message board.

Brian Lindsey
07-14-2010, 10:14 AM
FYI, y'all...

Oksana G. -- Gibson's baby mama -- has a 13-year old son with former 007 Timothy Dalton. Their relationship apparently lasted about a decade, although they never married.

Dalton was able to kick her to the curb with a (reportedly) modest monetary settlement, and there was hardly a blip in the British tabs. Neither has ever said a bad word about the other in public.

She then moved on to Gibson, who's worth a helluva lot more money than Dalton, and wasted little time getting knocked up.

That being said, as Troy states above the motivations of this Ukrainian gold-digger are entirely beside the point. Gibson is a middle-aged man in his 50s. He should not only have been smarter than that, more mature, but it's obvious from the recorded phonecons that he's a mean, potentially (if not probably) violent, drunken asshole.

I hope she takes his stupid bigoted ass to the cleaners.

And like OJ Simpson's very presence has ruined the NAKED GUN movies for me ever since his murder trial, I'm doubtful I could sit through one of Gibson's films (as an actor) ever again.

Aaron G
07-14-2010, 10:14 AM
Hey not all Catholics are bad! I mean look at all the fantastic porn, Gailli, spaghetti westerns, horror movies they make!

Horace Cordier
07-14-2010, 10:18 AM
Mel is out. I won't spend another dime on that fucker. Maybe I'll stick to downloading his movies instead.

To blame everything on the woman, which is a common thing when it comes to violence against women, is just disturbing. Even if she's a gold-digger (really, who that fuck cares about that?), she don't deserves to get those threats against her. It's strange how people so easy can defend a truly disturbed man like Mr Catholic.

I don't give a fuck if he's famous or not, a wife-beater is always a wife-beater.

Who's defending Gibson? If anything, I have been impressed by (aside from Whoopi - who is frankly an idiot) the fact that NO ONE has really come to his defense.

I have, however, seen a few mild questions raised about the girlfriend. And you know, it is possible that she is a "gold digger", an opportunist and a less than totally honest person and STILL not deserving of this treatment.

I look at it this way: the girlfriend is like a jaywalker that gets clipped by a car while crossing the street. Upon finding out that the driver is rich, the jaywalker attempts to screw the driver for some easy cash.

Unfortunately, the driver is a serial killer. :D

Call the jaywalker the girlfriend and Gibson the serial killer.

All kidding aside, I cannot even imagine how scary it would be to hear someone ranting about killing like Gibson does on those tapes. Closest I came was once being threatened by a violent bi-polar personality and I have to say Gibson sounds like that guy did - right down to the shortness of breath.

mark t
07-14-2010, 10:21 AM
I would've thought that after the whole PASSION thing, he would've been sunk. But I think that the loyalty of Christians, Catholics, and the Curious jacked the sales on that. As somebody else pointed out, APOCALYPTO was huge, even after all of the other nonsense.

Seeing Mel in the supplements on the PAYBACK disc with his crazy beard, there's no doubt that the man is a little off. :) But everyone seemed to have forgotten that by the time EDGE OF DARKNESS rolled around.

Here's my take....he will do fine. No matter what people think of him. Despite being dropped by his agency. In every situation, Mel has had some kind of buffer. During the PASSION craze, he had religion and religious supporters to offset his Jew-hatin'. During the DUI thing, he had alcohol to blame. With the Dean Richards "Asshole" affair, he came off as a guy just trying to move on...sympathetic. With this incident, he has the gold-digging wife as the scapegoat, even though I don't agree with her getting all of the blame.

Michael Richards, in comparison, had no buffer. Caught on camera freaking on a group of blacks, he is clearly angry and not "trying to defuse the heckling by being more outrageous".

Mel will do fine. The majority of people I've spoken to haven't even heard the details, even though it's widely available on youtube.

Chris Koenig
07-14-2010, 10:26 AM
But everyone seemed to have forgotten that by the time EDGE OF DARKNESS rolled around.

Which, for the record, I have to say was Mel Gibson's BEST performance..and for me, that's saying a lot!

Robin Bougie
07-14-2010, 10:27 AM
And like OJ Simpson's very presence has ruined the NAKED GUN movies for me ever since his murder trial, I'm doubtful I could sit through one of Gibson's films (as an actor) ever again.

I, on the other hand, *LOVE* Road Warrior, and will continue to do so until the day I die, regardless of how many babies Mel Gibson punches in the face between now and the day I kick it. Or how many wives that racist fuck disrespects and abuses, for that matter.

I know I've ranted about it here before, but to me separating the art from the artist is paramount when setting a critical eye upon creative work. I don't have to share the opinions, political beliefs, sexual orientation, or even the morals (or lack thereof) of every single one of the hundreds of people involved in the making of a movie/song/tv show/etc I adore -- nor could I, given how many variables there are within that teeming mass of humanity.

That said: After looking at Mel's imdb page, I am noting that I've never actually liked all that many of his movies, come to think of it. Gallipoli, Leathal Weapon, the Max Mad movies... what else? There isn't much else to get excited about there. The directors cut of Payback, maybe. The guy has done a lot of shit for such a well known star.

Adam A
07-14-2010, 10:32 AM
I am the Nightrider. I'm a fuel injected suicide machine. I am the rocker, I am the roller, I am the out-of-controller! :cool:

John G.
07-14-2010, 10:48 AM
Seeing Mel in the supplements on the PAYBACK disc with his crazy beard, there's no doubt that the man is a little off. :)
Gibson has ruined beards now too, that fucker. :mad:

mark t
07-14-2010, 11:00 AM
Gibson has ruined beards now too, that fucker. :mad:

You'd look like a douche with a beard anyway, Gargo. :D

dave hartley
07-14-2010, 11:10 AM
My own mind reading powers are somewhat diminished (probably an early symptom of old age) so I can't tell what Fred meant by calling him Mr Catholic. However since we're talking about someone who has not just stressed how important his (non-mainstream) religious views are to him (he's built his own traditionalist church after all), but who has also attempted to express them through his work, drawing attention to the chasm between the teachings of his faith and his actions is not unreasonable. It would be cynical - and probably wrong imo - to jump to the conclusion that he deliberately set himself up as a poster boy for his brand of catholicism for career purposes. Having said that, however, it's no more cynical than jumping to hasty conclusions about 'Eastern European gold-diggers'.


Here's my take....he will do fine.
Sadly I think that's right - his career as star was already over but the power of 'redemption' will see him through the rest.

Paul Casey
07-14-2010, 11:18 AM
Gibson has ruined beards now too, that fucker. :mad:

Without beards, you and Horamce will finally have to admit your love for each other...publicly!

Paul A J Lewis
07-14-2010, 11:56 AM
I, on the other hand, *LOVE* Road Warrior, and will continue to do so until the day I die, regardless of how many babies Mel Gibson punches in the face between now and the day I kick it. Or how many wives that racist fuck disrespects and abuses, for that matter.

I know I've ranted about it here before, but to me separating the art from the artist is paramount when setting a critical eye upon creative work. I don't have to share the opinions, political beliefs, sexual orientation, or even the morals (or lack thereof) of every single one of the hundreds of people involved in the making of a movie/song/tv show/etc I adore -- nor could I, given how many variables there are within that teeming mass of humanity.
Ditto. Thinking James Cameron's a tit never stopped me liking the first TERMINATOR, and although I think John Milius is as mad as a box of gun-toting frogs (but much less dangerous, admittedly), I still like just about everything that Milius has directed or written. Whether Gibson is a raging racist, misogynistic homophobe or not really doesn't have a bearing on his films; his greatest crime, in this regard, is making some dreadful pictures over the past fifteen or so years.

Really, I couldn't care less about the ins-and-outs of celebrities' love lives. That we live in an age where these kinds of stories are newsworthy is slightly sad, I think. It seems to be a fairly modern phenomenon that has developed over the last thirty years or so. I mean, Gaugin was supposed to have been a raging misogynist and, by most accounts, a complete twat; but that doesn't stop him being a great, and historically important, artist - and his misdeeds were hardly considered newsworthy. Louis-Ferdinand Céline was a notorious anti-Semite, but that doesn't negate his value as a great, and historically important, writer.

Not that Gibson is by any stretch of the imagination a great, and historically important, filmmaker ... but you get my point :D

Blake L.
07-14-2010, 12:10 PM
I know I've ranted about it here before, but to me separating the art from the artist is paramount when setting a critical eye upon creative work. I don't have to share the opinions, political beliefs, sexual orientation, or even the morals (or lack thereof) of every single one of the hundreds of people involved in the making of a movie/song/tv show/etc I adore -- nor could I, given how many variables there are within that teeming mass of humanity.

The music and movie businesses are chock full of assholes of varying degrees. From just anti-social types who react badly to the limelight they've worked for, to oddball lunatics like Gibson, if I decided to stop watching and listening to everything from people who's actions or words bothered me, I might not have much left to choose from.

Christopher B.
07-14-2010, 12:11 PM
[QUOTE=dave hartley;821223]My own mind reading powers are somewhat diminished (probably an early symptom of old age) so I can't tell what Fred meant by calling him Mr Catholic. However since we're talking about someone who has not just stressed how important his (non-mainstream) religious views are to him (he's built his own traditionalist church after all), but who has also attempted to express them through his work, drawing attention to the chasm between the teachings of his faith and his actions is not unreasonable.

I agree with you...the inner incongruence is jaw dropping. As much as I can't stand the man, I hope he doesn't hurt himself or anyone else.

Jonathan Douglas
07-14-2010, 12:31 PM
For me Mel's best role was playing that Danish Prince, it's the only time he's really impressed me as an actor so director Zeffirelli seemed to always get masterly performances out of his leads, did it too with Robert Powell as Jesus but other than that there's no comparing the two actors of course. As for Mel's crazy rant, bet he called home in self pity from a strip bar drunk and rolled that's what it sounds like to me.

Chris Koenig
07-14-2010, 12:34 PM
I know I've ranted about it here before, but to me separating the art from the artist is paramount when setting a critical eye upon creative work. I don't have to share the opinions, political beliefs, sexual orientation, or even the morals (or lack thereof) of every single one of the hundreds of people involved in the making of a movie/song/tv show/etc I adore -- nor could I, given how many variables there are within that teeming mass of humanity.


That's an interesting point there, Robin. And honestly, I'll say this: I do admire, to a certain extent, the works of cult filmmaker Andy Milligan. However, Milligan was no huge Saint of a man either and if you read the Jimmy McDonough bio there are some pretty jaw-dropping things in print.

However, unlike Gibson trying to hide his problems to such ill effect, Milligan rarely hid most of his personal issues (i.e., he made it damn clear he had racial issues, that he was a mysoginist, etc.) and it was never hidden among his personal friends and family. Does this change my personal viewing of Milligan's work? Sometimes it does, but it can add more depth to the dude for sure.

But man, look what I have reduced myself to: comparing Andy Milligan to Mel Gibson! Oh, the things I say and do!

J Dewey Wallis
07-14-2010, 12:34 PM
http://s-ak.buzzfed.com/static/enhanced/terminal01/2010/7/12/18/enhanced-buzz-17255-1278972726-10.jpg


Eh, celebrities being real life fucking nutters never bothered me from liking their work.

Hell, if you are someone like Kinski, the line is even more vague between mad reality and mad roles, so it kinda' enhances the work.

Road Warrior is still awesome.

Troy Howarth
07-14-2010, 12:49 PM
Hey, I was just skoffing and goofing around in my goofy way. Don't read too much into it, my friend. Also: A reasonably thick skin is a real asset on a message board.

Believe me: I you don't need to remind me about having a thick skin - I've certainly learned that over the years... but that being said, to imply somebody is a mysoginist or what-have-you for asking a simple question - you have to admit that may be a tad harsh. (And yes, I admit - I probably misread your intent; sorry for that.) Look, I'm not looking to fight with you or anything - we'll chalk it up to a simply SNAFU in communication. Also: it pays to bear in mind that what may come off as goofy and funny on a face to face basis may not necessarily translate to a message board; I've learned that, too, the hard way....

Troy Howarth
07-14-2010, 12:56 PM
http://s-ak.buzzfed.com/static/enhanced/terminal01/2010/7/12/18/enhanced-buzz-17255-1278972726-10.jpg


Eh, celebrities being real life fucking nutters never bothered me from liking their work.

Hell, if you are someone like Kinski, the line is even more vague between mad reality and mad roles, so it kinda' enhances the work.

Road Warrior is still awesome.

Kinski is a good case in point. Here's a man who is pretty much revered on these boards, yet there's no denying he was an incredibly arrogant, mean spirited individual; granted, I don't recall him ever going on any kind of a racist rant, but he did threaten to murder people and burn their houses down. Yet with regards to him it seems like it's all part of the fun of the image. It's part of the mystique. I'm not defending Gibson's rants or anything, but sometimes it pays to step back and remember that one doesn't need to be a nice person in order to be a good artist.

Chris Koenig
07-14-2010, 01:00 PM
Kinski is a good case in point. Here's a man who is pretty much revered on these boards, yet there's no denying he was an incredibly arrogant, mean spirited individual; granted, I don't recall him ever going on any kind of a racist rant, but he did threaten to murder people and burn their houses down. Yet with regards to him it seems like it's all part of the fun of the image. It's part of the mystique. I'm not defending Gibson's rants or anything, but sometimes it pays to step back and remember that one doesn't need to be a nice person in order to be a good artist.

Yeah, but I have to say that for all the crazed rants that Kinski gave and his insane tirades, I always felt with him it was a case of "his bark is worse than his bite". Now as for Gibson, well...I don't know, but let's hope he doesn't extend his hate towards a violent action.

Troy Howarth
07-14-2010, 01:11 PM
I'm not sure about that - Kinski is one of my favorite actors, but I don't doubt he was a homicidal egomaniac... I wouldn't have wanted to cross paths with him any more than I would want to meet Gibson.

dave hartley
07-14-2010, 01:49 PM
I know I've ranted about it here before, but to me separating the art from the artist is paramount when setting a critical eye upon creative work. I don't have to share the opinions, political beliefs, sexual orientation, or even the morals (or lack thereof) of every single one of the hundreds of people involved in the making of a movie/song/tv show/etc I adore -- nor could I, given how many variables there are within that teeming mass of humanity.

I'd only agree with that in the narrow sense of making critical judgments about the artistry (artistic technique) involved and even there it's a difficult line to maintain. Art is a product of human culture and can't be evaluated outside it. It's made by specific people in specific circumstances and some awareness of those specifics is part of the business of experiencing it.

For me the big problem in seperating art and artist is that it can lead to art (or worse still the artist) being stuck on a pedestal as if there was something extra-human about it or them. As the old saying goes prophets are never believed in their own country. I don't think the solution is to treat them as if they live in a different country, but rather to stop looking for prophets. Artists and their work have to be valued for what they are, warts and all.

If I don't think artist and art can be be seperated from one another, or from the context in which they exist, even less do I think that's true (or even possible) for entertainers and entertainment which I'd suggest is what we're talking about with Mel Gibson. How much of his stardom was based on his likeability ?

I've no intention of going out of my way to judge stuff by what I think about it's creators but I'm not going to run away from doing so if what I know about someone impresses me powerfully enough (whether positively or negatively). Nor am I going to give up the right to change my mind about things in the future.


That we live in an age where these kinds of stories are newsworthy is slightly sad, I think. It seems to be a fairly modern phenomenon that has developed over the last thirty years or so.

We live in a world in which we're encouraged to see and interpret 'reality' using the skills we learn in reading fictions - narratives, genres and stardom. The difference between consuming 'news' and consuming 'entertainment' has steadily been collapsed. Not surprising that some 'infotainment' can seem more interesting than actual 'entertainment'. Nor that it sometimes generates more interesting discussion than cult films do, even among cult film fans :)

Joshua Axelrad
07-14-2010, 02:23 PM
Gibson's rant is symptomatic of a much larger problem: 80s-90s Action Stars Gone Mad. First Gibson, then Snipes and Seagal. Who's next? :)

Steve R
07-14-2010, 02:36 PM
I know a guy who had a chance to meet and interview Bob Dylan. He passed on the chance. Big fan, too. His fear was that meeting the man face to face would be too intimidating. That it would get in the way of his love for his music. Too much risk, let him remain an enigma that makes great albums.

RichardDoyle
07-14-2010, 03:15 PM
If I'm not mistaken, he's an alcoholic. Of course, the things he have said and did are awful. But it's probably b/c of his alcoholism. That's not an excuse. I just wish he'd get help. And I do feel for the people he's negatively effected. All around, it's just a shame.

Drunk people don't say things they don't mean. If anything, they say what they really meant all along. I'd chalk up his lack of control to alcohol issues, but not what he's actually saying.

RichardDoyle
07-14-2010, 03:29 PM
I wouldn't be surprised if Gibson's acting career suffers from this but his directing career doesn't. I think it'll be tough for a lot of folks to look at him up on the screen and not see an absolute lunatic.

mark t
07-14-2010, 03:31 PM
I wouldn't be surprised if Gibson's acting career suffers from this but his directing career doesn't. I think it'll be tough for a lot of folks to look at him up on the screen and not see an absolute lunatic.


Hell, that might HELP his acting career. :D

Chris Koenig
07-14-2010, 03:37 PM
I wouldn't be surprised if Gibson's acting career suffers from this but his directing career doesn't. I think it'll be tough for a lot of folks to look at him up on the screen and not see an absolute lunatic.

I think it'll be even more tough to look up the screen and see the title 'Directed by Mel Gibson' with the indication that there is a lunatic behind the camera, as opposed to being in front of the camera!

David Lopez
07-14-2010, 04:23 PM
I know a guy who had a chance to meet and interview Bob Dylan. He passed on the chance. Big fan, too. His fear was that meeting the man face to face would be too intimidating. That it would get in the way of his love for his music. Too much risk, let him remain an enigma that makes great albums.

I had a chance to meet Harrison Ford a few years back, but I passed for basically the same reason. He has a reputation for not being terribly sociable with fans, and I would hate to discover that Han Solo/Indiana Jones/Rick Deckard was a jerk. It sounds silly, but I don't think I would be able to enjoy those films anymore.

Mark C.
07-14-2010, 04:45 PM
That heavy breathing that Mel does on the tapes really sounded manical. Although Mel comes off really bad on the tapes I really don't think Oskana is any better, if she leaked the tapes then its to her detriment as well. I cant help feeling bad for Mel listeninig to them though, this is really personal stuff airing out for the public.

RichardDoyle
07-14-2010, 06:04 PM
I think it'll be even more tough to look up the screen and see the title 'Directed by Mel Gibson' with the indication that there is a lunatic behind the camera, as opposed to being in front of the camera!

I don't think that many of your average film viewers give much thought to the director.

Adam A
07-14-2010, 06:07 PM
If he continues to beat on people I might be forced to check out some more of his flicks! :p

Chris Koenig
07-14-2010, 06:18 PM
I don't think that many of your average film viewers give much thought to the director.

Hmm, true...but then, I would think that even the presence of his name on screen as director, even if his physical presence isn't there on-screen as actor, would possibly make one blink twice. But then, maybe it's just me...and I'm sure that's it!

Daniel S.S.
07-14-2010, 06:24 PM
I don't see how her releasing the tapes makes her as bad as him. Not even close. At worst she's a gold digger and a manipulator - granted not good. At best he's a rabid bigot and possibly violent misogynist. Worse in my mind.

It's understandable to be skeptical about her claims not to have been the one who released the recordings. It would be hard to prove though, I think. She could have shared them with a friend or family member who in turn could have released them to radaronline. And I'll say this, I would have done the same for her had she been friend or family. Keeping in mind they live in a different world than most of us in terms of their privacy, I would want people to know that this isn't the charming goofball from What Women Want.

For the record I didn't see Fred's "Mr.Catholic" comment as a slight against Catholics, only a slight against Mel. In the same way I'm sure I referred to Jimmy Swaggart as Mr. Baptist back when he got caught being human. The only time I care about somebody having an affair, or being gay or whatever, is when they've built a career around telling everyone else they shouldn't have affairs or be gay or whatever. In those cases I'll admit there is satisfaction in calling them out on their hypocrisy.

Troy Howarth
07-14-2010, 06:56 PM
I'm not trying to suggest that Fred is anti-Catholic, that much should go without saying; I am saying, however, that to criticize somebody for their bigoted views by using a term like that sounds a bit off... it's kind of along the lines of "two wrongs don't make a right."

Thinking back, I also recall Gibson saying some extremely insensitive things about homosexuals.

Kamyar
07-14-2010, 07:37 PM
this is really personal stuff airing out for the public.

That's the thing, isn't it? Stuff like this happens all the time to many people all over the world, yet nobody knows or rather nobody cares. Why this is making headlines and provoking so many discussions, I don't understand. I feel sorry for the women who have to deal with lunatics that aren't Mel Gibson, because these women can't seek refugee at TMZ and PerezHilton, have to deal with cops that don't care, lawyers that deny them custody, husbands who will eventually take horrible revenge.

Daniel S.S.
07-14-2010, 08:34 PM
That's the thing, isn't it? Stuff like this happens all the time to many people all over the world, yet nobody knows or rather nobody cares. Why this is making headlines and provoking so many discussions, I don't understand. I feel sorry for the women who have to deal with lunatics that aren't Mel Gibson, because these women can't seek refugee at TMZ and PerezHilton, have to deal with cops that don't care, lawyers that deny them custody, husbands who will eventually take horrible revenge.

Why it's making headlines is because it's Mel Gibson. He's made headlines since about 1980 or so, for better or worse.

The rest of your observations I agree with completely. Life is hardly fair that way but I don't blame her for using the resources at her disposal. Particularly if she was legitimately afraid for her safety which, judging from the tapes, is not an unreasonable concern on her part.

Troy Howarth
07-14-2010, 10:13 PM
Greed, opportunism, fear... we'll never know for sure. What it comes down to is the double edged sword of fame: so many people want it, yet it does result in a lack of privacy. The public really SHOULDN'T be privvy to stuff like this, IMO, but it's out there and it's not going to change. It's symptomatic of our celebrity obsessed culture where wastes of DNA like Perez Hilton can make a living blogging on the intimate secrets (real and imagined) of people with far more talent than he could ever dream of possessing. I don't know - to me it's tantamount to legalized voyeurism. (To put it differently, it's like Kamyar says: this stuff happens every single day to people all over the globe... nobody gives a shit unless a "name" is involved, and even there it's often a case of morbid curiosity more than anything else.) Now, I'm talking about the overall trend of "stalking" celebrities and airing everything about them that's humanly possible - in the case of Gibson, it's a bit different. While this last batch of insanity was "leaked," he's brought plenty of attention to himself down through the years. Will it affect his career? I suspect it will in the short term, but in the long run... we'll have to wait and see, I guess.

Shane K
07-14-2010, 10:49 PM
Wow, white people say the "N" word when there aren't any black people around? Well color me surprised. I think it's more ignorance than racism, on Mel's part.

Chris Koenig
07-14-2010, 11:32 PM
What it comes down to is the double edged sword of fame: so many people want it, yet it does result in a lack of privacy. The public really SHOULDN'T be privvy to stuff like this, IMO, but it's out there and it's not going to change. t's symptomatic of our celebrity obsessed culture where wastes of DNA like Perez Hilton can make a living blogging on the intimate secrets (real and imagined) of people with far more talent than he could ever dream of possessing. I don't know - to me it's tantamount to legalized voyeurism. (To put it differently, it's like Kamyar says: this stuff happens every single day to people all over the globe... nobody gives a shit unless a "name" is involved, and even there it's often a case of morbid curiosity more than anything else.) Now, I'm talking about the overall trend of "stalking" celebrities and airing everything about them that's humanly possible - in the case of Gibson, it's a bit different. While this last batch of insanity was "leaked," he's brought plenty of attention to himself down through the years. Will it affect his career? I suspect it will in the short term, but in the long run... we'll have to wait and see, I guess.

I have to say, Troy, from what you've said it reminds me of a quote Victor Mature said about how another star was complaining about not getting any privacy from the media and public attention, to which Mature said, "If you're so concerned about fucking privacy, don't become a fucking actor!"

Chris Koenig
07-15-2010, 12:06 AM
Thinking back, I also recall Gibson saying some extremely insensitive things about homosexuals.

What Mel has said about homosexuals on-the-record have been quite mean-spirited. Are there any quotes? Oh yes, there are some and gawker.com did a brief layout on some of the things Mel has said, both past and present, entitled 'All the Terrible Things Mel Gibson Has Said on the Record' (here's the link: http://gawker.com/5582644/all-the-terrible-things-mel-gibson-has-said-on-the-record). Here are three Gibson statements from that link:

"They take it up the ass. (laughs, stands up, bends over, points to anus) This is only for taking a shit." - to Spanish newspaper 'El Pais' when asked what he thinks of gays (1991)

"With this look, who's going to think I'm gay? I don't lend myself to that type of confusion. Do I look like a homosexual? Do I talk like them? Do I move like them?" - from the same interview in 'El Pais'

"I'll apologize when hell freezes over. They can fuck off." - from 'Playboy' in 1995, about wheather he'd issue an apology to gays and lesbians.

Of course, homosexual comments aside, the best example of another Mel Gibson statement gone horribly wrong is when Gibson was so outraged by Frank Rich's negative review of "The Passion of the Christ". So outraged that it resulted in Gibson going off the handle claiming he wanted to kill Rich and stick his intestines on a stick...then adding that he'd like to kill Rich's dog!

Of course, I'm almost inclined to say he just about hates anyone who doesn't fit his standards, whatever those may be! And his drunken proclimation of him "owning" Malibu certainly didn't work for him either.

Randy Thomas G
07-15-2010, 05:02 AM
Wow, white people say the "N" word when there aren't any black people around? Well color me surprised. I think it's more ignorance than racism, on Mel's part.

Ignorant about what exactly? Not exactly like he's a 16-year-old who grew up uneducated in a shanty town or something.

As for him being Catholic, he actually belongs to a radical right-wing sect that broke off from the Catholic church after the liberal reforms of Vatican II (which have largely been reversed by the last two Popes anyway).

Jason Lee
07-15-2010, 06:05 AM
The only time I care about somebody having an affair, or being gay or whatever, is when they've built a career around telling everyone else they shouldn't have affairs or be gay or whatever. In those cases I'll admit there is satisfaction in calling them out on their hypocrisy.

Right with you on this point Daniel!

Thomas D.
07-15-2010, 06:19 AM
I guess Passion of the Christ 2: Christ Harder is now out of the question.

I haven't figured out how to embed yet, but here's another Mel argument:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9ge02eybjY&feature=related

Troy Howarth
07-15-2010, 08:24 AM
I have to say, Troy, from what you've said it reminds me of a quote Victor Mature said about how another star was complaining about not getting any privacy from the media and public attention, to which Mature said, "If you're so concerned about fucking privacy, don't become a fucking actor!"

I expected somebody to say something along those lines... but does that make it right? Sure, the tradeoff to the fame and money is an absence of privacy - but the stuff Mature and his ilk would have had to endure back in the day is nothing compared to today. It's a reasonable trade off, I guess, but people like Perez Hilton truly make me sick - I find it despicable that people like that can make a living dragging the names of others through the mud. None of this applies so much to Gibson, who has brought his own drama upon himself, but it's something that does trouble me.

Olexei Tolchev
07-15-2010, 08:53 AM
I'd like to hear the conversations between Mel and his bitch when she wasn't reading a script. As an adult I can seperate the man and the performer, Mel and his Lethal Weapon hair will always have a special place in my heart.

The tapes are hilarious, people are exaggerating the race bullshit, the outrage is stupid.

Chad Haden
07-15-2010, 10:16 AM
He's batshit crazy but I still love the first two Mad Max films, the first three Lethal Weapon films and Payback (the director's cut)

mark t
07-15-2010, 10:22 AM
But nobody pays attention to the good things, like when he saved those black people from the Apartheid guys, even though they had diplomatic immunity. And seriously, if Roger's daughter was digging on him, and him on her, how racist can he be?

Aaron G
07-15-2010, 10:23 AM
as much as he's an arsehole, people like him don't become massive for no reason. He is a wildly talented, driven, organised individual who has run his own business, let alone hugely successful studio. He's not an idiot or a psycho. Psychos and idiots don't rise to the top of the capiltalist pile like that.

I wouldn't rate him as a great artist. He's an entertainer. Entertainers make a classic 'break out' movie more often channeled through someone elses' work -eg Mel via Mad Max, Rusell Crowe via Romper Stomper or Gladiator, but they aren't like say a Warren Oates...

I'm still on the fence about his artistry as a director as I think 'the passion' and 'apocalypto' are pretty genuine in their own skewed way.

I think the Russian is gonna fuck him gape style in a big way. It wuld be cool if he makes a low-budget intense Cassavettes style movie to document it, but he's a lunatic Catholic, so he'll probably make some biblical adaptation like Samson and Deliliah or something...

James Erickke
07-15-2010, 10:26 AM
I love this latest one where he yells at her for not blowing him before she got in the jacuzzi. Awesome.

Thomas D.
07-15-2010, 10:36 AM
I love this latest one where he yells at her for not blowing him before she got in the jacuzzi. Awesome.

They just keep coming and coming. It's like the fucking Frost/Nixon tapes by now.

Chad Haden
07-15-2010, 10:41 AM
But nobody pays attention to the good things, like when he saved those black people from the Apartheid guys, even though they had diplomatic immunity. And seriously, if Roger's daughter was digging on him, and him on her, how racist can he be?

Yeah, the Murtaughs loved him so he can't be racist

Troy Howarth
07-15-2010, 10:45 AM
as much as he's an arsehole, people like him don't become massive for no reason. He is a wildly talented, driven, organised individual who has run his own business, let alone hugely successful studio. He's not an idiot or a psycho. Psychos and idiots don't rise to the top of the capiltalist pile like that.

I wouldn't rate him as a great artist. He's an entertainer. Entertainers make a classic 'break out' movie more often channeled through someone elses' work -eg Mel via Mad Max, Rusell Crowe via Romper Stomper or Gladiator, but they aren't like say a Warren Oates...

I'm still on the fence about his artistry as a director as I think 'the passion' and 'apocalypto' are pretty genuine in their own skewed way.

I think the Russian is gonna fuck him gape style in a big way. It wuld be cool if he makes a low-budget intense Cassavettes style movie to document it, but he's a lunatic Catholic, so he'll probably make some biblical adaptation like Samson and Deliliah or something...

I'd say you're more or less on the money here. I wouldn't rate him as a great artist, either, but his drive has made him (at least formerly) into a major player in the industry. Now, that being said - I'd agree he's not an idiot (just saying idiotic things doesn't necessarily make someone an idiot; it's just a matter of being blinded by personal prejudice), but being psycho has nothing to do with one's ability to sell one's self or be savvy in business. I don't know if the man literally is psycho or not, but he clealry has a lot of rage, and the alcohol and power trips aren't helping that any.

Troy Howarth
07-15-2010, 10:47 AM
Yeah, the Murtaughs loved him so he can't be racist

What's Danny Glover got to say about this?

"I'm getting too old for this shit."

mark t
07-15-2010, 10:51 AM
it wasn't that long ago that Danny Glover was being called racist for shooting a black kid that was a friend of his son's.

Chris Koenig
07-15-2010, 10:52 AM
It wuld be cool if he makes a low-budget intense Cassavettes style movie to document it, but he's a lunatic Catholic, so he'll probably make some biblical adaptation like Samson and Deliliah or something...

You know, as I live out in Illinois and listen in to the Rod Blagoavitch trial, I have to say Mel should direct and star in a movie about the governor! I mean, if you listen to both audio tapes of Mel and Rod doing their insane screaming and cursing, I could see Mel in that role since he has the anger and power-trip issue down to a 'T'!

And no, I am certainly not kidding about this idea.

John G.
07-15-2010, 10:56 AM
Visually, PASSION and APOCALYPTO are staggeringly wonderful films... the former doesn't hold up on repeated viewings because the excesses are not conducive to its thematic context (in the way, by contrast, that SALO's excesses complement its message) and APOCALYPTO doesn't hold up because the second half of the film devolves into a standard chase picture, but dammit if that that sacrifice scene on top of the tempo doesn't remind one of Jodorowskian fever dream.

I will see his Viking movie, if it ever gets made that is. He's talented but unfortunately I think his mainsteam sensibilities run counter to the types of films he's attempting to make... THE PASSION, for instance, would be a much better film without those asides to his sermons... if you're going to commit to a gory Medieval passion play, I think you should commit to it.

John G.
07-15-2010, 11:04 AM
Interestingly, the visceral impact of his films is undeniable... I think I rated both of those films very highly the first time I saw them. It's on repeated viewings that the flaws start to reveal themselves to me. I cannot help it, however, if I respond more favorably to the visual aspects of films (Fellini, Argento, Greenaway, Lynch, candy-colored giallos, etc. etc.).

EDIT: Sorry, I wanted to talk about films for a second and I know this is largely a tabloid and (crazy) beard thread.

Chris Koenig
07-15-2010, 11:05 AM
I don't know if the man literally is psycho or not, but he clealry has a lot of rage, and the alcohol and power trips aren't helping that any.

Well, and not to beat this over the head completly, let's also add that he definately has some anti-Semetic issues that he can't seem to control either. The Florida incident proved that single-handedly, at least to me anyways; yes, booze was involved, but considering how Gibson was getting a lot of flack for "The Passion of the Christ" being an anti-Semetic film and vehemently denying it, but then in a drunken rage go off about how the Jews are responsible for all the worlds problems, I'd say that's more than just a coincidence.

And, when you consider that his father Hutton is known for being a Holocaust denier and written some papers about the subject, so I've heard, I'd say this is one aspect that has rubbed off on Mel in quite the bad way.

Troy Howarth
07-15-2010, 11:09 AM
Well, and not to beat this over the head completly, let's also add that he definately has some anti-Semetic issues that he can't seem to control either. The Florida incident proved that single-handedly, at least to me anyways; yes, booze was involved, but considering how Gibson was getting a lot of flack for "The Passion of the Christ" being an anti-Semetic film and vehemently denying it, but then in a drunken rage go off about how the Jews are responsible for all the worlds problems, I'd say that's more than just a coincidence.

And, when you consider that his father Hutton is known for being a Holocaust denier and written some papers about the subject, so I've heard, I'd say this is one aspect that has rubbed off on Mel in quite the bad way.

He's clearly anti-Semetic, anti-gay, mysoginistic... it's all a part of the rage I'm alluding to. The man needs therapy.

Troy Howarth
07-15-2010, 11:13 AM
Visually, PASSION and APOCALYPTO are staggeringly wonderful films... the former doesn't hold up on repeated viewings because the excesses are not conducive to its thematic context (in the way, by contrast, that SALO's excesses complement its message) and APOCALYPTO doesn't hold up because the second half of the film devolves into a standard chase picture, but dammit if that that sacrifice scene on top of the tempo doesn't remind one of Jodorowskian fever dream.

I will see his Viking movie, if it ever gets made that is. He's talented but unfortunately I think his mainsteam sensibilities run counter to the types of films he's attempting to make... THE PASSION, for instance, would be a much better film without those asides to his sermons... if you're going to commit to a gory Medieval passion play, I think you should commit to it.

Well, I think Passion had visually stunning MOMENTS. I never saw Apocalypto the whole way through, but I saw chunks on cable - it didn't strike me as being as visual as all that. Passion is too far over the top to really work for me - it has its moments, but it suffers from overkill, if you'll pardon the expression. It just becomes laughable due to the excess.

I doubt the viking film will get made, at least with a name cast. Word has it that DiCaprio has already bailed.

Chris Koenig
07-15-2010, 11:27 AM
Well, I think Passion had visually stunning MOMENTS. I never saw Apocalypto the whole way through, but I saw chunks on cable - it didn't strike me as being as visual as all that. Passion is too far over the top to really work for me - it has its moments, but it suffers from overkill, if you'll pardon the expression. It just becomes laughable due to the excess.

That's what did in "The Passion of the Christ" for me as well. I can see where Gibson was going with it, even if I don't agree with his religious methodology of the piece, but the excess Jesus whipings was the final blow. Understanding that Gibson was trying to make a point of it all (i.e., Jesus died for our sins...yeah, okay Mel, I get it but I don't need it to be done within a long sequence of vicious lashings to make it clear!), that point has been done better in other Christ-sagas like "The Greatest Story Ever Told" and "Jesus of Nazereth" that didn't go overboard in excess.

As for "Apocalypto", it was...well, it was...uh, meh. If any, I think it was just an attempt by Gibson to take a page from Cornel Wilde's "The Naked Prey" (1966), but Wilde's film was infinately better when you consider both films are about "the chase".

Troy Howarth
07-15-2010, 11:40 AM
That's what did in "The Passion of the Christ" for me as well. I can see where Gibson was going with it, even if I don't agree with his religious methodology of the piece, but the excess Jesus whipings was the final blow. Understanding that Gibson was trying to make a point of it all (i.e., Jesus died for our sins...yeah, okay Mel, I get it but I don't need it to be done within a long sequence of vicious lashings to make it clear!), that point has been done better in other Christ-sagas like "The Greatest Story Ever Told" and "Jesus of Nazereth" that didn't go overboard in excess.

As for "Apocalypto", it was...well, it was...uh, meh. If any, I think it was just an attempt by Gibson to take a page from Cornel Wilde's "The Naked Prey" (1966), but Wilde's film was infinately better when you consider both films are about "the chase".

For me, the best "Christ film" I can think of is Last Temptation of Christ. Scorsese was able to convey the suffering in a graphic manner without going so far over the top as to make it unintentionally funny. Passion is very effective as it starts out, but the more excessive it becomes the more unbelievable it is. That kind of excess is all well and good in a horror film, but here it seems to undercut the seriousness of its message - and on top of that, the film does take itself much too seriously.

James Erickke
07-15-2010, 11:52 AM
There are parts of these tapes where he sounds like Sam Kinison and other parts reminds me of when Jack Nicholson berates that woman in Carnal Knowledge about getting out of bed and getting a job. It cracks me up when he gets all out of breath from yelling too.

John G.
07-15-2010, 12:04 PM
The best Jesus movie is Pasolini's THE GOSPEL ACCORDING TO ST. MATTHEW.

Troy Howarth
07-15-2010, 12:08 PM
The best Jesus movie is Pasolini's THE GOSPEL ACCORDING TO ST. MATTHEW.

That would come in a very close second for me.

Joshua Axelrad
07-15-2010, 12:59 PM
James-If you listen to Howard Stern, he made the same point and even played the "Carnal Knowledge" clip.

Jonathan Douglas
07-15-2010, 01:07 PM
On many levels JESUS OF NAZARETH's my #1 Christ flick, it's the whole written story as we know it with no experimental detours or fresh directorial eyes. Except Jesus' eyes are blue here, but I'm not hung up on detail realism enough to care about that (nor were millions of fans then apparently) or its array of old film stars when it's as they say the greatest story ever told. Don't know how Mel feels about this TV classic, but powerful and packing a punch without excessive violence it still is. He likes to play warriors for some reason and personally I really dug his BRAVEHEART for its battle scenes, disliked though most war stuff he's been in including the sad Nam tale WE WERE SOLDIERS.

J Dewey Wallis
07-15-2010, 02:28 PM
Drunk people don't say things they don't mean. If anything, they say what they really meant all along...

Thats a complete fallacy.

I've known, quite well, a number of alcoholics and a few of them were affected by alcohol in ways that lead to them doing and saying things very out of character.

I don't think its the majority case. From what I've seen only an exception but still very possible.

Steve R
07-15-2010, 03:05 PM
...sorry, excuse me. I just came into the theatre.
Does all this mean they won't be showing Lethal Weapon Five
this afternoon?

Steve R
07-15-2010, 03:08 PM
Mel's director report card

B - Apocalypto (2006)
F - The Passion of the Christ (2004)
A - Braveheart (1995)
C - The Man Without a Face (1993)

Paul A J Lewis
07-15-2010, 03:11 PM
We live in a world in which we're encouraged to see and interpret 'reality' using the skills we learn in reading fictions - narratives, genres and stardom. The difference between consuming 'news' and consuming 'entertainment' has steadily been collapsed. Not surprising that some 'infotainment' can seem more interesting than actual 'entertainment'. Nor that it sometimes generates more interesting discussion than cult films do, even among cult film fans :)
I don't know if that's really a new phenomenon, Dave; there are some cultural critics who suggest that it is, but I'd argue that the intersection point of the narratives of our fictions and the narratives of our lives has a heritage that stretches back to the Ancient Greeks. It's just more noticeable now due to the 'in your face' nature of digital cultures.

I would add that for my money, the preponderance of celebrity gossip in today's media landscape is symptomatic of: (1) media outlets feeling the need to provide content for too many platforms and thus dredging the proverbial barrels of supposedly newsworthy stories (and having to compete with the 'citizen journalists' of the digital world, whose hands aren't tied by the same ethical and legal frameworks), (2) lazy work by (overworked and overstretched) journalists, and increasingly (3) individuals associated with the 'blogosphere', etc (ie, what we often call 'citizen journalists'), who latch onto sensationalist stories in order to cynically make names for themselves.

For me, the cynical exploitation (by professional tittle-tattlers and the 'blogosphere' alike) of celebrities' private lives, mental health issues, etc - for financial gain or for the purposes of simply making a name for oneself - is more morally problematic than, in this case, Gibson's racial slurs and verbal threats in a private, albeit heated and aggressive, conversation. In this case, especially, there's a child involved, and having grown up in a household with a father who was frequently drunken and violent (towards my mother) I can't imagine anything worse than reaching adulthood and finding out that those kinds of private dramas had been played out in the public eye - and that cynical media-hounds had made money out of it.

It's made by specific people in specific circumstances and some awareness of those specifics is part of the business of experiencing it.
I see what you're saying there, but on the other hand the nature of our celebrity-obsessed culture can lead to a suggestion that the only framework/context through which art (film, literature, etc) can be understood is the that of the author's life. That's a retrenchment into reductive biographism. Some of that information can be relevant, but there needs to be a wider sense of context too. Our current obsession with celebrity lifestyles isn't particularly healthy from that perspective.

Troy Howarth
07-15-2010, 03:12 PM
...sorry, excuse me. I just came into the theatre.
Does all this mean they won't be showing Lethal Weapon Five
this afternoon?

Funnily enough, something like that is about the ONLY thing he could do that would likely do some damage control. But with Mel's rep ruined and with Danny Glover losing a lot of respect due to his support of Hugo Chavez... it ain't lookin' good!

Troy Howarth
07-15-2010, 03:13 PM
Mel's director report card

B - Apocalypto (2006)
F - The Passion of the Christ (2004)
A - Braveheart (1995)
C - The Man Without a Face (1993)

I guess Man without a Face would be my favorite, followed by Braveheart; I'm not crazy about any of them, though. I was thinking of this yesterday: while I've always been OK with him as an actor, I literally don't like ANY of his films enough to actually have a copy in my collection.

Troy Howarth
07-15-2010, 03:16 PM
I don't know if that's really a new phenomenon, Dave; there are some cultural critics who suggest that it is, but I'd argue that the intersection point of the narratives of our fictions and the narratives of our lives has a heritage that stretches back to the Ancient Greeks. It's just more noticeable now due to the 'in your face' nature of digital cultures.

I would add that for my money, the preponderance of celebrity gossip in today's media landscape is symptomatic of: (1) media outlets feeling the need to provide content for too many platforms and thus dredging the proverbial barrels of supposedly newsworthy stories (and having to compete with the 'citizen journalists' of the digital world, whose hands aren't tied by the same ethical and legal frameworks), (2) lazy work by (overworked and overstretched) journalists, and increasingly (3) individuals associated with the 'blogosphere', etc (ie, what we often call 'citizen journalists'), who latch onto sensationalist stories in order to cynically make names for themselves.

For me, the cynical exploitation (by professional tittle-tattlers and the 'blogosphere' alike) of celebrities' private lives, mental health issues, etc - for financial gain or for the purposes of simply making a name for oneself - is more morally problematic than, in this case, Gibson's racial slurs and verbal threats in a private, albeit heated and aggressive, conversation. In this case, especially, there's a child involved, and having grown up in a household with a father who was frequently drunken and violent (towards my mother) I can't imagine anything worse than reaching adulthood and finding out that those kinds of private dramas had been played out in the public eye - and that cynical media-hounds had made money out of it.

I see what you're saying there, but on the other hand the nature of our celebrity-obsessed culture can lead to a suggestion that the only framework/context through which art (film, literature, etc) can be understood is the that of the author's life. That's a retrenchment into reductive biographism. Some of that information can be relevant, but there needs to be a wider sense of context too. Our current obsession with celebrity lifestyles isn't particularly healthy from that perspective.

I have absolutely no doubt it's become worse due to the internet - it's too easy to post every rumor and allow it to take on a life of its own. It's always been there, I agree, but I honestly think it has gotten worse in recent years. Granted, back in the day you had the Louella Parsons and that ilk - but I think information has become so much more easily accessed - and all the more readily made available to the public.

Troy Howarth
07-15-2010, 03:22 PM
Thats a complete fallacy.

I've known, quite well, a number of alcoholics and a few of them were affected by alcohol in ways that lead to them doing and saying things very out of character.

I don't think its the majority case. From what I've seen only an exception but still very possible.

I think the truth is somewhere in between. While alcohol does act as a "social lubricant" which allows people to forget about censoring themselves, I think it also can prompt people to say and do things that are, as you say, very much out of character. Now the question is, how much of that is just a result of losing control - of stopping the process of censoring ourselves, knowing the end result of what will happen if we actually say the things we're thinking - and how much of it is basically generated by the substance itself? I'd say it varies on a case by case basis. Take Oliver Reed, for example. People who knew him said that, while sober, he was kind, good natured and very considerate; when he drank, he turned into the proverbial Mr. Hyde. Contrary to the common misconception of it just being him "having a good time," those who knew him well have said that it was a problem that was outside of his control; he tried to get sober, but it had too great a hold over him. He paid the ultimate price - it cost him his life at a relatively early age.

Terry Carpenter
07-15-2010, 04:11 PM
The only thing that could save him now.....Mad Max 4.

Blake L.
07-15-2010, 04:49 PM
The only thing that could save him now.....Mad Max 4.

Too late. Being filmed without him.

Terry Carpenter
07-15-2010, 05:44 PM
Well then, the ship has sailed.

Chris Koenig
07-15-2010, 06:15 PM
Mel's director report card

B - Apocalypto (2006)
F - The Passion of the Christ (2004)
A - Braveheart (1995)
C - The Man Without a Face (1993)

Eh, I'll give "Apocalypto" a C- for effort, which is a rare thing in a Gibson production I must say, and "The Passion of the Christ" is somewhere in between a C and an F, depending on how I view it. I've only seen bits and pieces of "Man Without a Face", so I can't judge the whole thing yet and I've barely been interested in seeing it.

But "Braveheart" gets a solid F for being inexcusably bad. The fight scenes aren't too badly staged, but the script really needed a huge overhaul since it really lacks depth in it's characters (i.e., everybody is just too one-dimensional) and Gibson's direction of the actors is almost near non-existant...with the exception of himself because, hey, after all is both the main star and the director. Add to that a way too long running time of 2-hours over and lagging in parts that should've been far more effective in their spectacle. That and it's historical story of William Wallace is near inaccurate...but that blame goes squarely to scriptwriter Randall Wallace, responsible for writing that other historical shitfest "Pear Harbor", and also while the question of a movie based on historical events is usually fudged a bit to make it playable there were some other interesting elements about the William Wallace character that should've been considered to make his character more than just a one-dimensional hero.

Chris Koenig
07-15-2010, 06:25 PM
For me, the best "Christ film" I can think of is Last Temptation of Christ. Scorsese was able to convey the suffering in a graphic manner without going so far over the top as to make it unintentionally funny.

Troy, thank you for mentioning Scorsese's film; I enjoyed that one as well and strangely enough I forgot about it until you mentioned it. Certainly one Christ film that definately needs more respect, at least in my personal opinion.

Troy Howarth
07-15-2010, 07:09 PM
I think it's a wonderful film - moving, deeply felt and very striking on a visual level. It conveys the agony of what Christ goes through without turning into a freakshow.

Matt T
07-15-2010, 07:32 PM
Is it wrong that I like him more now after listening to the tapes?...

Shane K
07-15-2010, 07:57 PM
Ignorant about what exactly? Not exactly like he's a 16-year-old who grew up uneducated in a shanty town or something.

I should have said rude. I meant that he's ignorant in the fact that he's using the word, he should know better. He could have been a little more creative and said scumfucks or whathaveyou. Scumfucks could be anybody, you're not singling out anyone in particular. Just like if a friend is pissing you off, and you call them a "insert racist or homophobic derogatory term here", it doesn't mean that you're actually a racist or a homphobe. You're being unimaginitive, and at the same time ignorant (rude) for going there.

John G.
07-15-2010, 09:21 PM
Just like if a friend is pissing you off, and you call them a "insert racist or homophobic derogatory term here", it doesn't mean that you're actually a racist or a homphobe. You're being unimaginitive
That's the kind of shit that I expect from middle and high school students. When I hear older people doing that, I wonder how they ever graduated because mentally they seem to be stuck in adolescence.

Shane K
07-15-2010, 09:24 PM
They probably graduated by being Johnny football hero. If not that, then money and/or influence.

Ian F
07-15-2010, 09:36 PM
That's the kind of shit that I expect from middle and high school students. When I hear older people doing that, I wonder how they ever graduated because mentally they seem to be stuck in adolescence.

Say Mel Gibson, now just repeat what you said, then say Mel Gibson again, and repeat. See now it forms an mobius strip of racism, homophobia, stupidity, and answers your question. :)

Randy Thomas G
07-16-2010, 05:32 AM
The best Jesus movie is Pasolini's THE GOSPEL ACCORDING TO ST. MATTHEW.

I agree, I also like Scorsese's film.

Gibson's film is a mess, I liked the concept, but the slow-motion, OTT music, terrible scenes with a sympathetically drawn Pilate, Jesus building a table (?) and Judas just drags the film down and the montonous violence becomes inadvertently funny to me. Also, for a supposedly Catholic film Mary has to be one of the most under-realized figures in the film (compare her to the women in Scorsese's film).

Gibson's claims in interviews that his Jesus was 'tough' and could take a lot of punishment has to be some of the most ridiculous nonsense I've ever heard. As if the centre of the Passion is that Jesus could really take a beating or something. Scorsese and Pasolini's fillms are much more truly intense and insightful films imo, and it's ironic considering neither of them would be considered conventional 'believers' (but then Gibson isn't really a conventional Catholic either, but part of a far-right breakaway sect).

Randy Thomas G
07-16-2010, 05:40 AM
He's not an idiot or a psycho. Psychos and idiots don't rise to the top of the capiltalist pile like that.


Uh, Richard Nixon? :D

RichardDoyle
07-16-2010, 04:53 PM
Thats a complete fallacy.

I've known, quite well, a number of alcoholics and a few of them were affected by alcohol in ways that lead to them doing and saying things very out of character.

I don't think its the majority case. From what I've seen only an exception but still very possible.

I know A LOT of alcoholics, and I don't really know any that would agree with you. In fact I don't think it's consistent with the philosophy behind 12 step programs to assert that you were doing and saying things that were far out of character. Much of the point is that you're exactly the same person sober as you were drunk.

RichardDoyle
07-16-2010, 04:58 PM
I think the truth is somewhere in between. While alcohol does act as a "social lubricant" which allows people to forget about censoring themselves, I think it also can prompt people to say and do things that are, as you say, very much out of character. Now the question is, how much of that is just a result of losing control - of stopping the process of censoring ourselves, knowing the end result of what will happen if we actually say the things we're thinking - and how much of it is basically generated by the substance itself? I'd say it varies on a case by case basis. Take Oliver Reed, for example. People who knew him said that, while sober, he was kind, good natured and very considerate; when he drank, he turned into the proverbial Mr. Hyde. Contrary to the common misconception of it just being him "having a good time," those who knew him well have said that it was a problem that was outside of his control; he tried to get sober, but it had too great a hold over him. He paid the ultimate price - it cost him his life at a relatively early age.

I don't think the Oliver Reed situation is someone "acting out of character" so much as the fact that people who do not metabolize alcohol properly are subject to extreme alterations in mood. While someone can swing to really violent and scary moods, they're not going to start throwing out racist epithets if they would never have said them in any other context.

Troy Howarth
07-16-2010, 07:00 PM
That's definitely true, but I do think it can prompt people to do and say things that they normally wouldn't - it may be buried somewhere in their psyche in the first place, but the ability to self censor is a big factor in being able to fit into society in the first place.

RichardDoyle
07-17-2010, 09:43 AM
That's definitely true, but I do think it can prompt people to do and say things that they normally wouldn't - it may be buried somewhere in their psyche in the first place, but the ability to self censor is a big factor in being able to fit into society in the first place.

Well, I think we actually agree. My original point was just that I don't think it's fair to say that the stuff that Mel was saying was a product of alcohol so much as alcohol plus some pretty twisted thoughts. I don't think it really matters whether he'd actually say any of this stuff when sober.

Aaron G
07-22-2010, 12:12 PM
Christopher Hitchen's hits him out of the park!

http://www.slate.com/id/2260937/?from=rss

When are the Mossad gonna order a hit on him and his father? (who i remember winning the mercedes benz on oz gameshow 'sale of the century'!!) :p

John G.
07-22-2010, 12:17 PM
Hitchens is awesome... I hope he recovers from his cancer quickly.

Wostry Ferenc
07-22-2010, 12:20 PM
Hitchens has cancer?!

James Erickke
07-22-2010, 12:40 PM
I think it's some kind of throat cancer.

Chris Koenig
07-22-2010, 12:54 PM
Christopher Hitchen's hits him out of the park!

http://www.slate.com/id/2260937/?from=rss




Agreed.

Troy Howarth
07-22-2010, 01:12 PM
Christopher Hitchen's hits him out of the park!

http://www.slate.com/id/2260937/?from=rss

When are the Mossad gonna order a hit on him and his father? (who i remember winning the mercedes benz on oz gameshow 'sale of the century'!!) :p

That is a good article; thanks for posting it.

cworkman
07-22-2010, 01:21 PM
Bingo, Christopher, and that's why I think you're awesome! (Along with Richard Dawkins.)

John G.
07-22-2010, 02:23 PM
I think it's some kind of throat cancer.
Yeah, his esophagus - word is it's spread to the lymph nodes, which is not a good sign. He still seems to be publishing articles, so at least he's not on his death bed yet.

There are a couple of ridiculous blogs where people are debating whether or not to "pray" for him.

RichardDoyle
07-22-2010, 04:51 PM
Christopher Hitchen's hits him out of the park!

http://www.slate.com/id/2260937/?from=rss

When are the Mossad gonna order a hit on him and his father? (who i remember winning the mercedes benz on oz gameshow 'sale of the century'!!) :p

Yeah ... that's excellent. Great article.

Mark Savage
07-22-2010, 05:09 PM
It was all downhill after THE ROAD WARRIOR?

Gimme a break.

Mel has starred in made many excellent movies and directed some gems such as APOCALYPTO.

Lately, it sickens me to be a member of a race (human) that is so quick to rush to mob-like judgment.

His girlfriend clearly provoked him and recorded the calls without his knowledge. The conflict between them is nobody's business. It is private.

Can anybody here say that the public is welcome to listen to every one of their phone calls and that they have never expressed their anger in a way that could be deemed over-the-top?

Sure, Gibson is an admitted alcoholic, and he is on record as having anger issues, but the venom directed at him is really about the directors feeling superior to him.

Well, you're not. We're all flawed.

What we don't know is what has really made Mel so angry. It clearly has something to do with his girlfriend.

His career is done in Hollywood? Bullshit. Only if he wants it to be done.

Hollywood has a history of forgiving anybody who will make it money. That's all that matters.

My opinion of Gibson has not changed. How could it? I don't have all the facts.

Ian F
07-22-2010, 06:39 PM
Lately, it sickens me to be a member of a race (human) that is so quick to rush to mob-like judgment.

His girlfriend clearly provoked him and recorded the calls without his knowledge. The conflict between them is nobody's business. It is private.

I'd say the Anti-Semitic stuff ruined it for me (and was well documented too), so it's sort of hard to rush to judgment. My dad was just saying how he was looking for something to watch and Lethal Weapon was on and he just couldn't watch it. I feel the same way. It's a shame as Mel was in a lot of movies that I really enjoyed and I just can't enjoy them anymore.

That said I don't care how provoked he was, you don't threaten to commit arson and forced oral sex on someone. I mean who the hell even thinks up a combination like that!

Randy Thomas G
07-22-2010, 09:31 PM
His girlfriend clearly provoked him and recorded the calls without his knowledge. The conflict between them is nobody's business. It is private.


How she 'clearly provoked him' is unclear to me, unless you have some kind of information unavailable to the rest of us. I read she started to record him for the police because he was threatening her life, which is clearly backed up by several of his statements.

It isn't okay to threaten to kill people, in private conversations or not. That is a crime.

Christopher B.
07-22-2010, 10:35 PM
Aaron, thank you for posting that Hitchens article! Very interesting.

John G.
07-23-2010, 12:40 AM
so quick to rush to mob-like judgment.
It's been a couple of months since his Anti-semitic drunking rant... When his movie EDGE OF DARKNESS came out, there was plenty of discussion about Mel's "comeback" and it seemed as though people were giving him the benefit of the doubt. This isn't a rush to judgment - it's a confirmation of bigotry. You could argue that we don't have the full picture, but is racism and sexism ever justified?

Ian F
07-23-2010, 12:59 AM
It's been a couple of months since his Anti-semitic drunking rant... When his movie EDGE OF DARKNESS came out, there was plenty of discussion about Mel's "comeback" and it seemed as though people were giving him the benefit of the doubt. This isn't a rush to judgment - it's a confirmation of bigotry. You could argue that we don't have the full picture, but is racism and sexism ever justified?

Yes!
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/b/bd/Cannon_Films.jpg

Mark Savage
07-23-2010, 01:42 AM
How she 'clearly provoked him' is unclear to me, unless you have some kind of information unavailable to the rest of us. I read she started to record him for the police because he was threatening her life, which is clearly backed up by several of his statements.

It isn't okay to threaten to kill people, in private conversations or not. That is a crime.

She is recording him, but we never hear the beginning of the conversation. She remains perfectly calm and he rants. No conversation begins that way.

I wouldn't say he's seriously threatening to kill her. He's just angry. People say crazy things when they're angry.

This golddigger has a history with other rich men.

I'm not saying that Gibson wasn't stupid for hooking up with her, but let's not pretend that she's an innocent party here.

Gibson was married for many years and has had 8 children. His ex- came out and said that he never abused her. She could have simply remained silent, but she didn't.

There are two sides, and there's not enough info on any side to make a sound judgment.

I don't understand the human desire to want to rush to judgment.

I didn't like that one of the recordings featured Gibson bagging her son. She should not have released that part. That served nobody.

Chris Koenig
07-23-2010, 02:00 AM
His girlfriend clearly provoked him and recorded the calls without his knowledge. The conflict between them is nobody's business. It is private.

From what has been played of the recordings I can't see how this woman "provoked him" in any way. She's pretty cool and calm as she speaks and never taunting, all the while Mel rants, raves and swears like no tomorrow in a poor attempt to try to dominate her in some way. And even when she does get snippy at him in some parts, Mel continues to rant and rave like she has no business making a defense for herself!

Say what you want about the situation and that we don't know the whole story, but it's not right to go off and threaten to punch and/or take a baseball bat to a woman...as well as threaten to burn her alive in a home and demand forced sex in the process!

Oh, and if Mel wants to defend himself and actually cared, he'd be making some sort of statement already...well, he has his lawyers to speak for him, I guess.

Chris Koenig
07-23-2010, 02:15 AM
She is recording him, but we never hear the beginning of the conversation.

Well, I can't say that not hearing the beginning of the conversation is entirely her fault; the various Internet, TV and radio stations are playing the parts of Gibson going nutty as opposed to the whole entire piece. Keep in mind that one of the tapes ran a full 30 minutes; yes, it doesn't help that the various rants are being played in bits-and-pieces, possibly out of order as well.

But with that said, it's still quite inappropriate for Mel to make threatening comments, especially some that infer the act of murder in them. And yes, Mel might've been quite angry and enraged, but that doesn't mean a person who says crazy things when they are angry might not put those threats into action.

And frankly, if someone threatened to "bury you in a rose garden", would you not be the least bit worried or concerned for your safety? Either way how you want to slice it, the woman being a golddigger or not, it's still a threat and should not be taken very lightly, in my opinion.

RichardDoyle
07-23-2010, 06:39 PM
She is recording him, but we never hear the beginning of the conversation. She remains perfectly calm and he rants. No conversation begins that way.

I wouldn't say he's seriously threatening to kill her. He's just angry. People say crazy things when they're angry.

This golddigger has a history with other rich men.

I'm not saying that Gibson wasn't stupid for hooking up with her, but let's not pretend that she's an innocent party here.

Gibson was married for many years and has had 8 children. His ex- came out and said that he never abused her. She could have simply remained silent, but she didn't.

There are two sides, and there's not enough info on any side to make a sound judgment.

I don't understand the human desire to want to rush to judgment.

I didn't like that one of the recordings featured Gibson bagging her son. She should not have released that part. That served nobody.

You make it sound like people are simply taking sides in an argument without knowing any context. I don't think I or anyone really cares about who's right or wrong in their actual dispute. The question is what sort of person says things like this:

"I will report her to the fucking people that take fucking money from the wetbacks."

"You look like a fucking pig in heat, and if you get raped by a pack of niggers, it will be your fault."

"Fucking Jews... The Jews are responsible for all the wars in the world… Are you a Jew?"

What context do you figure makes that okay? Describe a scenario that would lead you to say ... oh, okay. Now I get it. It's all cool.

Randy Thomas G
07-24-2010, 03:35 AM
Apparently if a woman is a 'gold-digger' she deserves any treatment meted out to her.

Gold-digger = anything goes

Racist sociopath = poor man in need of protection from mob justice

After all we know from the OJ, Phil Spector and Robert Blake that women have nothing to fear from their celebrity husbands and lovers.

I'm sure she could take comfort in the fact that Mel never bumped off his ex-wife.

Anyway, this thread seems it will soon be going the way of the Polanski thread, I think I'll bow out at this point.

james_brummel
07-24-2010, 07:27 AM
The question is what sort of person says things like this:

<offensive Mel ranting snipped>

What context do you figure makes that okay? Describe a scenario that would lead you to say ... oh, okay. Now I get it. It's all cool.

When spoken by a raving drunken alcoholic.

I think the philoospher Don Knotts said "We all have thoughts that would shame hell". Mel is an alkie and spews his inner dialogue when drunk. I have racist, sexist, etc thought. I know they are crazy and irrational and they are neutralized by the more rational parts of my brain. Pour a liter of Popov vodka in me that rational mind goes sleepy bye.

Chris Koenig
07-24-2010, 10:06 AM
When spoken by a raving drunken alcoholic.

I think the philoospher Don Knotts said "We all have thoughts that would shame hell". Mel is an alkie and spews his inner dialogue when drunk.

Uh, except Mel has spoken his inner dialogue when he's not drunk either, so the issue of him being an alcoholic towards this woman is a moot point for me. Not saying that isn't part of the problem with him, but to say that all his bigoted, racist, sexist comments all come fourth from the bottom of a bottle is hard to swallow (pardon the non-intentional pun there). Of course, one could say his drunken Florida arrest was mainly the result of Mel being inebriated, but that's only half of it: when you compound the anti-Semetic comments he yelled out during his arrest, coupled with the fact that while sober Mel denied having any anti-Semitism in his entire body and in his film "The Passion of the Christ" during interviews, I'd say his personal issues in that spectrum were more than just a coincidence and/or alchohol related.

And also, how can we be so sure that Gibson was drunk when he made those phone calls? It's pretty easy to say that's part of the problem, but on the tapes he sounds quite sober and, hard to believe, coherant when he is speaking; no slurring of the speech and no drowning out/blacking out when trying to talk in a complete sentence.

mark t
07-24-2010, 11:59 AM
I'd say at this point, we can't be sure of anything. Except for the fact that Gibson did say those things, and they do fall under the "not acceptable" category, according to a lot of folks. I'm kinda surprised that anyone is shocked, truth be told.


Anyway, whether he was provoked or not, it's out there, now. I guess that time will tell if he's going to be able to keep working.

AdamAskov
07-24-2010, 01:12 PM
The first MAD MAX film fucking rules. That's the end of this story for me. I believe in the freedom of speech and I think it's quite sickening to see people spending their time discussing an intimate argument between Gibson and his wife? (that happened within Gibsons own home?). What the fuck.

Paul Casey
07-24-2010, 01:25 PM
The first MAD MAX film fucking rules. That's the end of this story for me. I believe in the freedom of speech and I think it's quite sickening to see people spending their time discussing an intimate argument between Gibson and his wife? (that happened within Gibsons own home?). What the fuck.

Well, it became quite the opposite of intimate when she published the tapes. She did it clearly to get people talking and to destroy his image.
Smell ya later, intimacy.

dave hartley
07-24-2010, 01:39 PM
I believe in the freedom of speech and I think it's quite sickening to see people spending their time discussing (...)
Most excellent :)

AdamAskov
07-25-2010, 03:28 PM
Most excellent :)

Haha. Well you get the point. Who gives a fuck what he said. I once said that "the thing that horrified me the most about the second world war was the state of Israel". Does that make me a nazi? Oh... Maybe it does haha. :D

Let Gibson say whatever he wants to say behind closed doors. This was said in his home to his wife. I don't agree with the things he said, but it's not like he intended to say that stuff on national television.

Ian Jane
07-25-2010, 03:38 PM
Let Gibson say whatever he wants to say behind closed doors. This was said in his home to his wife. I don't agree with the things he said, but it's not like he intended to say that stuff on national television.

Well, one of the shitty things so many deluded people like to forgot to associate with free speach is accountability. Mel is free to say what he wants, sure, but he's also accountable for what he says and whether or not the comments were meant for public consumption is irrelevent. He said what he said and it's come back to bit him on this ass and while it's almost certain that we're hearing all sorts of things out of context, it's like the poster above said... there isn't really a good context for those types of comments in the first place.

I like a lot of his movies but he's proven himself an asshole a few times now.

John G.
07-25-2010, 04:12 PM
The first MAD MAX film fucking rules.
You're welcome George Miller. :D

james_brummel
07-25-2010, 04:34 PM
Originally Posted by AdamAskov View Post
I believe in the freedom of speech and I think it's quite sickening to see people spending their time discussing (...)

That's kind of hysterical Adam. No one is saying he isn't free to say whatever he wants. But the freedom you are concerned about runs both ways. I am free to say he is a drunken lout who should drag his ass to Betty Ford or the Aerosmith Center whatever.
I am also free to say I will never watch another Gibson (although I haven't seen one since CONSPIRACY THEORY, and I considered it a Captain Picard movie) movie, please join me. That's the 1st amendment at work. It's called the marketplace of ideas, what is popular sells, what is not rots on the shelves.

Chris Koenig
07-25-2010, 06:13 PM
Well, one of the shitty things so many deluded people like to forgot to associate with free speach is accountability. Mel is free to say what he wants, sure, but he's also accountable for what he says and whether or not the comments were meant for public consumption is irrelevent. He said what he said and it's come back to bit him on this ass and while it's almost certain that we're hearing all sorts of things out of context, it's like the poster above said... there isn't really a good context for those types of comments in the first place.


Well said, Ian. Well said.

RichardDoyle
07-26-2010, 05:57 PM
When spoken by a raving drunken alcoholic.

I think the philoospher Don Knotts said "We all have thoughts that would shame hell". Mel is an alkie and spews his inner dialogue when drunk. I have racist, sexist, etc thought. I know they are crazy and irrational and they are neutralized by the more rational parts of my brain. Pour a liter of Popov vodka in me that rational mind goes sleepy bye.

Bullshit. Most folks simply do not have an inner dialogue that includes "The Jews are responsible for all the wars in the world".

james_brummel
07-26-2010, 10:00 PM
Bullshit. Most folks simply do not have an inner dialogue that includes "The Jews are responsible for all the wars in the world".

You're right, not that extreme. But I believe most people thoughts that if broadcast everybody would look crazy. I am in no way apologizing for Mel, I think the stuff he said when arrested coupled with anti semitic crap in Passion
( and his "WHO,ME?" denials) is pretty screwed up. I have heard a lot worse from people who are stone sober. They aren't celebs so no one cares.

Ehren H.
07-27-2010, 12:53 PM
Hitchens' article was spot on, as always. Glad he's still writing, and hope he has a full recovery.

I said my piece in the "separating the art from the artist" thread in Off Topic, so I'll be concise here. Fuck Mel Gibson. I've been saying he's an insane, racist piece of shit since The Passion of the Christ came out, and all the people who told me I was wrong had to give a little when the DUI happened, and now I can say a lot of I-told-you-sos.

I like the Mad Max flicks, Lethal Weapon series, Payback, and even Maverick...but he hasn't gotten a dime of my money since The Passion, and he never will again. This incident doesn't change my view of him at all, it just confirms the view I've had for years in a big, big way.

John G.
07-27-2010, 02:14 PM
Fuck Mel Gibson.
Kind of redundant at this point, since he's done a thorough job of fucking himself. :D

Marshall Crist
07-27-2010, 02:52 PM
Anybody here who's not their own worst enemy, raise their hand.

Paul Casey
07-27-2010, 03:10 PM
Anybody here who's not their own worst enemy, raise their hand.

I can't, otherwise my dick will run away.

RichardDoyle
07-27-2010, 04:09 PM
You're right, not that extreme. But I believe most people thoughts that if broadcast everybody would look crazy. I am in no way apologizing for Mel, I think the stuff he said when arrested coupled with anti semitic crap in Passion
( and his "WHO,ME?" denials) is pretty screwed up. I have heard a lot worse from people who are stone sober. They aren't celebs so no one cares.

It's not true that no one cares. Maybe less people care, but not no one.

Marshall Crist
08-17-2010, 05:34 AM
Sounds like Mel drives better when he's had a few.

Jason Allen
08-17-2010, 06:33 AM
It was all downhill after THE ROAD WARRIOR. It's true.